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Old 10-04-2016, 02:18 PM   #201
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Thanks for the reply Wormbo. I kinda figured it would be an overly complex undertaking... and I've said this before, it's not fair of us to ask you to continue putting tons of precious time and effort into this just to make the last few of us that still play this game happy. Unless you just like to!

And good point about improving the scoring system itself. I remember the posts discussing this, about changing the scoring to give more weight to things like healing/destroying nodes and maybe even healing occupied vehicles and lessening the weight of kills. Has anything been changed on the scoring system yet?

Excited to see how the map-specific PPH balancing works out, thanks again for making that happen.
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:53 AM   #202
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Well, many months later and the balancer IMO seems to not be improving team balance in any way. The last 3 weeks or so have been particularly bad with most matches I've played being completely one-sided. And I'm not talking about cases where a lot of players are coming and going throughout the match. I play mostly later at night when the crowd playing tends to not change significantly during a match. I'll make an effort to start taking screenshots of starting and ending player rosters with team scores for more than anecdotal evidence.

I saw a post where Smoker mentioned a new version of EvenMatch... what's new about it and is it already in play?
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Old 01-19-2017, 06:05 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Well, many months later and the balancer IMO seems to not be improving team balance in any way. The last 3 weeks or so have been particularly bad with most matches I've played being completely one-sided. And I'm not talking about cases where a lot of players are coming and going throughout the match. I play mostly later at night when the crowd playing tends to not change significantly during a match. I'll make an effort to start taking screenshots of starting and ending player rosters with team scores for more than anecdotal evidence.

I saw a post where Smoker mentioned a new version of EvenMatch... what's new about it and is it already in play?
Sadly, I wish we had kept track of match by match results. Though there are still one sided matches, I feel like it happens less frequently than when it was a free for all.

I don't think the new Even Match is out, at least not that I have seen.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:31 PM   #204
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Hey Enyo and Lagzilla, Yeah I use UT2K4Cache from the omni link to move my Cache files to the directories since sometimes my cache would become corrupted and had noticed this file name so I automatically assumed it was a new one. EvenMatchV2a9 was the file name I saw in the list so it was my assumption but you know how assuming something is lol.

Hows the Arms Enyo??
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Old 01-20-2017, 07:27 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Well, many months later and the balancer IMO seems to not be improving team balance in any way. The last 3 weeks or so have been particularly bad with most matches I've played being completely one-sided. And I'm not talking about cases where a lot of players are coming and going throughout the match. I play mostly later at night when the crowd playing tends to not change significantly during a match. I'll make an effort to start taking screenshots of starting and ending player rosters with team scores for more than anecdotal evidence.

I saw a post where Smoker mentioned a new version of EvenMatch... what's new about it and is it already in play?
Do you think wins/losses would be a better statistic than PPR?
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Old 01-21-2017, 03:47 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Turbo K View Post
Do you think wins/losses would be a better statistic than PPR?
wins/losses might be good to include as a metric, but not on its own. Even more relevant, IMO, is the rate at which players build/destroy nodes. BUT, as Wormbo already mentioned, including any other metrics than what's already being used (PPH is the only thing used now I think) would take an extraordinary amount of coding time and effort.

I'm not really concerned with having the balancer edited ad nauseum any more... like I said before, not really fair of us last 100 or so players left in this game to ask that of anyone. I just would like for everyone that's willing to start tracking the team makeup and end match results to get some hard numbers on how well the balancer is doing. I've started to take screenshots and record end of match results to get a better idea. I just feel like the balancer makes things worse than random teams, others disagree.
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:14 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
wins/losses might be good to include as a metric, but not on its own. Even more relevant, IMO, is the rate at which players build/destroy nodes. BUT, as Wormbo already mentioned, including any other metrics than what's already being used (PPH is the only thing used now I think) would take an extraordinary amount of coding time and effort.

I'm not really concerned with having the balancer edited ad nauseum any more... like I said before, not really fair of us last 100 or so players left in this game to ask that of anyone. I just would like for everyone that's willing to start tracking the team makeup and end match results to get some hard numbers on how well the balancer is doing. I've started to take screenshots and record end of match results to get a better idea. I just feel like the balancer makes things worse than random teams, others disagree.

The balancer seems to always put you and Guy on separate teams, so it must be doing something right. It usually comes down to what team's weaker players actually put in the effort to win, or just hang back and rack up kills.

Example: Martian. Sometimes he gets 2nd place and is very useful, sometimes he uses the Mino to get 1st place and is generally unhelpful, and sometimes he just runs in a straight line to the middle and wastes a player spot.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:01 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Turbo K View Post
The balancer seems to always put you and Guy on separate teams, so it must be doing something right. It usually comes down to what team's weaker players actually put in the effort to win, or just hang back and rack up kills.

Example: Martian. Sometimes he gets 2nd place and is very useful, sometimes he uses the Mino to get 1st place and is generally unhelpful, and sometimes he just runs in a straight line to the middle and wastes a player spot.
I have to respectfully disagree with that... I know because I've had to endure many GTKU rants over the last few weeks! We have ended up on the same team quite a lot. However, you're right in a sense that it often will split up the two top PPH guys, but the rest of the balance seems very off. I don't really know how the balancer is calculating balance at all, other than it's using PPH. Is it taking a long term PPH average for each player, or for just the last few matches? Is it using map specific PPH like was once discussed? Is it giving each team roughly the same overall PPH? IDK... wormbo, care for input here so we actually know how it's calculating?

It seems like it's taking an average of scores across all players and trying to split the average evenly over the two teams. Sometimes often it seems you have one or two players with a really high average PPH paired with a bunch of lower PPH players versus a team full of middle/high average PPH guys. The teams' overall average PPHs may be close to each other, but the team with two power players and a bunch of weak players more often than not will lose, because the other team has mostly players that, although not super strong, do work as a team and go to nodes. Not sure if I'm explaining this scenario well, but it happens something like this:

Team 1:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 550
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 500
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 100
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 120
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 80
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Team 2:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 400
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 300
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 200
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 200
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Now, obviously I'm using round numbers here to make an example, but this is how the balancer often seems to mix up the teams. Both teams have the same average PPH, but team 2 will likely win because it has more middle road players that work together and go after nodes, while team 1 has 3 lower levels that don't do much other than camp somewhere useless or spam locked nodes. And no, I don't have hard numbers to support this, but I don't need to see every player's actual PPH to know this is how teams are often being shuffled. Many of us can look at a team roster and instantly know which team is likely to win based on past experience. Unfortunately, the balancer doesn't seem to have this ability, presumably because the way it's doing calculations.

IDK, maybe I'm all wet here, just my personal observation.
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Old 01-22-2017, 01:35 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
I have to respectfully disagree with that... I know because I've had to endure many GTKU rants over the last few weeks! We have ended up on the same team quite a lot. However, you're right in a sense that it often will split up the two top PPH guys, but the rest of the balance seems very off. I don't really know how the balancer is calculating balance at all, other than it's using PPH. Is it taking a long term PPH average for each player, or for just the last few matches? Is it using map specific PPH like was once discussed? Is it giving each team roughly the same overall PPH? IDK... wormbo, care for input here so we actually know how it's calculating?

It seems like it's taking an average of scores across all players and trying to split the average evenly over the two teams. Sometimes often it seems you have one or two players with a really high average PPH paired with a bunch of lower PPH players versus a team full of middle/high average PPH guys. The teams' overall average PPHs may be close to each other, but the team with two power players and a bunch of weak players more often than not will lose, because the other team has mostly players that, although not super strong, do work as a team and go to nodes. Not sure if I'm explaining this scenario well, but it happens something like this:

Team 1:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 550
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 500
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 100
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 120
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 80
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Team 2:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 400
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 300
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 200
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 200
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Now, obviously I'm using round numbers here to make an example, but this is how the balancer often seems to mix up the teams. Both teams have the same average PPH, but team 2 will likely win because it has more middle road players that work together and go after nodes, while team 1 has 3 lower levels that don't do much other than camp somewhere useless or spam locked nodes. And no, I don't have hard numbers to support this, but I don't need to see every player's actual PPH to know this is how teams are often being shuffled. Many of us can look at a team roster and instantly know which team is likely to win based on past experience. Unfortunately, the balancer doesn't seem to have this ability, presumably because the way it's doing calculations.

IDK, maybe I'm all wet here, just my personal observation.
Good post.
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Old 01-22-2017, 02:17 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
I have to respectfully disagree with that... I know because I've had to endure many GTKU rants over the last few weeks! We have ended up on the same team quite a lot. However, you're right in a sense that it often will split up the two top PPH guys, but the rest of the balance seems very off. I don't really know how the balancer is calculating balance at all, other than it's using PPH. Is it taking a long term PPH average for each player, or for just the last few matches? Is it using map specific PPH like was once discussed? Is it giving each team roughly the same overall PPH? IDK... wormbo, care for input here so we actually know how it's calculating?

It seems like it's taking an average of scores across all players and trying to split the average evenly over the two teams. Sometimes often it seems you have one or two players with a really high average PPH paired with a bunch of lower PPH players versus a team full of middle/high average PPH guys. The teams' overall average PPHs may be close to each other, but the team with two power players and a bunch of weak players more often than not will lose, because the other team has mostly players that, although not super strong, do work as a team and go to nodes. Not sure if I'm explaining this scenario well, but it happens something like this:

Team 1:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 550
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 500
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 100
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 120
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 80
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Team 2:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 400
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 300
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 200
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 200
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Now, obviously I'm using round numbers here to make an example, but this is how the balancer often seems to mix up the teams. Both teams have the same average PPH, but team 2 will likely win because it has more middle road players that work together and go after nodes, while team 1 has 3 lower levels that don't do much other than camp somewhere useless or spam locked nodes. And no, I don't have hard numbers to support this, but I don't need to see every player's actual PPH to know this is how teams are often being shuffled. Many of us can look at a team roster and instantly know which team is likely to win based on past experience. Unfortunately, the balancer doesn't seem to have this ability, presumably because the way it's doing calculations.

IDK, maybe I'm all wet here, just my personal observation.
Your post is correct, and unfortunately most game balancers work this way, since there really isn't a better option. The alternative is that middle-of-the-road players are put with the top players, which is unfair to the other team, who now has the second -best players and the worst players.

In the other game I play, Battlefield, my squad will typically kick ass and end up at the top of the scoreboard. Then the game balancer puts the poor players on our team, and the good-but-not-great players on the other team, and we lose simply because the other team has more players actually going to objectives.

The only solution I can think of that doesn't involve advanced statistical analysis is to simply let admins manually switch players around.
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Old 01-22-2017, 02:28 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post

Sometimes often it seems you have one or two players with a really high average PPH paired with a bunch of lower PPH players versus a team full of middle/high average PPH guys. The teams' overall average PPHs may be close to each other, but the team with two power players and a bunch of weak players more often than not will lose, because the other team has mostly players that, although not super strong, do work as a team and go to nodes. Not sure if I'm explaining this scenario well, but it happens something like this:
YES I've noticed this too. Usually during a match I find the winning team is whoever has the most 100-200pt (good) players. Having a couple 200+ (best) players helps but is certainly not a dealbreaker as it doesn't take many of the 0-100 (stains) players to cancel you out, even if you're on a 300+ rampage. I've started to notice this setup quite a bit:

winning team
best
good
good
good
good
good
good
good
stain
stain


losing team
best
best

good
good
stain
stain
stain
stain
stain
stain


On the flipside though, when the matches are even and we have a game last 90 minutes or so, people start to complain about "ten more rounds" so perhaps we'll never win. It's like we're all junkies chasing the dragon for the ultimate match for a game we've played since boybands were a thing.

I'm all for tweaking this server though. This is about the last video game I play anymore.
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Old 01-22-2017, 04:36 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH View Post
On the flipside though, when the matches are even and we have a game last 90 minutes or so, people start to complain about "ten more rounds" so perhaps we'll never win.
Because we keep playing the same shitty, boring maps over and over again. Or maps that used to be good, but were "improved."
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Old 01-22-2017, 05:15 PM   #213
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To Bingers point, this is a good post.

I am curious why chaos would be better than trying? Chaos could put all the 500 pph people on one team. That kind of blowout has basically stopped unless it happened with joins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
I have to respectfully disagree with that... I know because I've had to endure many GTKU rants over the last few weeks! We have ended up on the same team quite a lot. However, you're right in a sense that it often will split up the two top PPH guys, but the rest of the balance seems very off. I don't really know how the balancer is calculating balance at all, other than it's using PPH. Is it taking a long term PPH average for each player, or for just the last few matches? Is it using map specific PPH like was once discussed? Is it giving each team roughly the same overall PPH? IDK... wormbo, care for input here so we actually know how it's calculating?

It seems like it's taking an average of scores across all players and trying to split the average evenly over the two teams. Sometimes often it seems you have one or two players with a really high average PPH paired with a bunch of lower PPH players versus a team full of middle/high average PPH guys. The teams' overall average PPHs may be close to each other, but the team with two power players and a bunch of weak players more often than not will lose, because the other team has mostly players that, although not super strong, do work as a team and go to nodes. Not sure if I'm explaining this scenario well, but it happens something like this:

Team 1:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 550
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 500
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 100
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 120
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 80
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Team 2:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 400
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 300
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 200
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 200
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Now, obviously I'm using round numbers here to make an example, but this is how the balancer often seems to mix up the teams. Both teams have the same average PPH, but team 2 will likely win because it has more middle road players that work together and go after nodes, while team 1 has 3 lower levels that don't do much other than camp somewhere useless or spam locked nodes. And no, I don't have hard numbers to support this, but I don't need to see every player's actual PPH to know this is how teams are often being shuffled. Many of us can look at a team roster and instantly know which team is likely to win based on past experience. Unfortunately, the balancer doesn't seem to have this ability, presumably because the way it's doing calculations.

IDK, maybe I'm all wet here, just my personal observation.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:16 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
To Bingers point, this is a good post.

I am curious why chaos would be better than trying? Chaos could put all the 500 pph people on one team. That kind of blowout has basically stopped unless it happened with joins.
To quote the Joker, "you know the thing about chaos... it's fair."

Seriously though, I think random is better simply because like TurboK said, "unfortunately most game balancers work this way," which is flat out fundamentally flawed and will usually tip the balance in favor of the team with the most middle of the road players and a couple good ones. I mean seriously? The balancer is SUPPOSED to put a bunch of shitty players with a couple of really good ones vs. a bunch of fairly decent players??? And that's called "balance?" If this is the case, then the balancer is essentially nothing more than preordained fuckery.

That is, IMO, far worse than random, which is not necessarily synonymous with chaos, BTW. And no, those types of blowouts with mostly heavy hitters all on one team have certainly not stopped, not by any means. See these screenshots from just tonight... 3 matches, 3 totally unbalanced teams, 3 complete blowouts. And note the teams barely changed, if at all. 2 of these matches were back to back. I have seen far more matches like this the past 4 weeks more so than any balanced matches. And these are not the only unbalanced matches from tonight, they're just the most egregious cluster fucks perpetuated by the balancer.

I can't count the number of times I've looked at the beginning random team makeups and thought, that actually looks somewhat even, to only then marvel at how terribly the "balancer" then screws it up by putting several really good players on the same team and one good player with a bunch of "shitstains" on the other.




[url=https://postimage.org]
[url=https://postimage.org]
[url=https://postimage.org]



Last edited by Enyo; 01-23-2017 at 12:00 AM..
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Old 01-23-2017, 06:17 AM   #215
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I am curious, can we check the server/balancer settings and see what they currently are set to?

Thank you guys!
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:53 PM   #216
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Reviving this thread, for discussion of the balancer on Omni 2.0
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Old 02-24-2021, 04:06 PM   #217
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Quote:
t seems like it's taking an average of scores across all players and trying to split the average evenly over the two teams. Sometimes often it seems you have one or two players with a really high average PPH paired with a bunch of lower PPH players versus a team full of middle/high average PPH guys. The teams' overall average PPHs may be close to each other, but the team with two power players and a bunch of weak players more often than not will lose, because the other team has mostly players that, although not super strong, do work as a team and go to nodes. Not sure if I'm explaining this scenario well, but it happens something like this:

Team 1:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 550
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 500
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 100
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 120
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 80
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6

Team 2:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 400
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 300
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 250
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 200
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 200
Overall Avg PPH: 266.6
Based on the code it doesn't work like that:

https://github.com/TheRealWormbo/Eve...nMatchRules.uc

It appears to start with the highest player PPH, add them to Blue, then
While (Red>Blue) then add next highest player to Blue else add to Red

Team 1:
Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 550 RT 550
Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 300 RT 850
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250 RT 1100

Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 250 RT 1350

Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 120 RT 1470
Plyr4 Avg. PPH: 100 RT 1570



Team 2:

Plyr2 Avg. PPH: 500 RT 500

Plyr1 Avg. PPH: 400 RT 900
Plyr3 Avg. PPH: 250 RT 1150
Plyr5 Avg. PPH: 200 RT 1350
Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 200 RT 1550

Plyr6 Avg. PPH: 80 RT 1630
[/QUOTE]


The map specific stuff doesn't appear to be on the server, I don't see map specific data, but I am not 100% sure.



Even so PPH is still a bit misleading because of point whoring vehicles, I bet Beetchucker racks up the points being very aggresive in the mino, vs. someone who primarily builds nodes in a raptor...
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Old 02-25-2021, 03:58 PM   #218
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Here's actual log of a match yesterday
EvenMatch: Shuffling teams based on previous known PPH...
EvenMatchDebug: fL@n@g@N 522.13 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: FuriousRabbit 450.32 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: ^oblio^ 182.63 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Enyo 287.58 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: leon 550.62 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: EbNo 339.27 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: rigelStar 178.45 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Terramerge 417.90 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Army 324.63 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: El_Chingon 179.56 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: pOOty 441.82 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: svauser 192.59 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: -=CC=-Terminator 260.94 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: 13 players, combined PPH 4328.43, balance target PPH per team 2164.22
EvenMatchDebug: Balancing team sizes and PPH...
EvenMatchDebug: Odd player count, randomly assigning rigelStar to red (178.45 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning leon (550.62 PPH) and fL@n@g@N (522.13 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: leon will be on blue (now 550.62 PPH), fL@n@g@N will be on red (now 700.59 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning FuriousRabbit (450.32 PPH) and pOOty (441.82 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: FuriousRabbit will be on blue (now 1000.94 PPH), pOOty will be on red (now 1142.40 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Terramerge (417.90 PPH) and EbNo (339.27 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Terramerge will be on blue (now 1418.84 PPH), EbNo will be on red (now 1481.67 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Army (324.63 PPH) and Enyo (287.58 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Army will be on blue (now 1743.47 PPH), Enyo will be on red (now 1769.25 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning -=CC=-Terminator (260.94 PPH) and svauser (192.59 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: -=CC=-Terminator will be on blue (now 2004.41 PPH), svauser will be on red (now 1961.84 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning ^oblio^ (182.63 PPH) and El_Chingon (179.56 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: ^oblio^ will be on red (now 2144.47 PPH), El_Chingon will be on blue (now 2183.97 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Red team size 7, combined PPH 2144.47
EvenMatchDebug: Blue team size 6, combined PPH 2183.97
EvenMatchDebug: Applying team changes...
EvenMatchDebug: Moving EbNo to red
EvenMatchDebug: Moving Enyo to red
EvenMatchDebug: Moving svauser to red
EvenMatchDebug: Moving leon to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Moving Army to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Moving -=CC=-Terminator to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Teams shuffled.
{glr}pooty is offline  
Old 02-25-2021, 05:34 PM   #219
dognuts
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Not sure if it will work pooty but you have my respect and thanks for trying to make things better.

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Old 02-26-2021, 12:32 PM   #220
{glr}pooty
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Thanks, I think the balancer algorithm is sound. But I need to understand how its tracking PPH. And as I've said things like the Mino and MAS (Mobile Assault Stations - Levi/Tiamat/Krakens) really skew the PPH because of the huge damage.
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