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Old 07-19-2016, 08:54 AM   #1
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Continued from: http://forum.omnipotents.com/showthread.php?t=14899

Per the poll results the autobalancer has been removed from the server (for now?)

I'm in favor of the balancer myself but consciously excluded myself from the vote as I don't think my play-time really entitles me to a vote compared to you all, with more time on the server I know guys like Lag or Enyo really feel the effects of the mutator more than me. My personal experience is I don't really watch where most players end up but I hate hate hate the mutator when dimsuck is around because I think I've been on his team like 5% of the time since having the balancer. To me that means it's working great but again I don't think my experience is as relevant as I'm not taking into account most players or seeing trends like you are.

Just so we're all sort of clear there's a few options, right?
* remove the balancer, hope that the default state of the game (random) is a better way to go
* keep the balancer as-is
* modify the balancer
* do something different, like what Turbs was saying about having admins deal with it.

removing it and just sitting on our hands is probably the wrong way to go I think and I don't think anyone is really advocating for that. I could be wrong of course so please correct me on that if that's really what anyone wants. So where do we go, what's the solution or at least the path towards better?

Having admins manually move people seems untenable but maybe it's worth a try? seems like it might make them even less popular but that's not my problem

The balancer is on github here, Wormbo is basically around and I'm sure if we helped him we could change it however makes sense. )o( has a dedicated server to UT so if we needed to run some sort of analytics on previous matches we could do that and Wormbo would be the guy to know if a certain statistic was available for saving/analyzing. I'd really like to come up with a better way to balance teams if we can, ideas?

ideas (not mine, from the previous thread IIRC):
* reshuffle only recently added players/players joining after the match starts
* only shuffle at the beginning of the match
* make player-join actions random by 50% of the time swapping the last-joined guy with a newly joining guy (that one is cool IMO)
* base initial shuffle on more in-depth data than just PPH (match-specific PPH, win ratios, etc)
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:40 AM   #2
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The real irony of this whole balancing situation is these issues did not happen at all in my
playing years ('06 - '11). Map would load, the "smart" players would look at the teams
and get a general feel of the balance (without PPR numbers, ffs, PPR is really not a valid
thing to use for balancing, a lot of players contribute (or did in my era) to the teams
success without having tons of points) and if the balance was off one or two of the
studs would be asked to move. They would, and off we would go.

TK, I'm not sure and admin moving people around would work in this ONS environment. Freon
is a much tighter community and the skill levels are much more "surface"; killing and thawing.
There is some aspect of team play, but not nearly as critical as in ONS. Plus, Freon matches
are MUCH shorter, so if one team is getting brutalized, it's usually over quickly.

With a mod like SolToolz for ONS the ability to quickly and easily move players around might
work provided that the more level headed players in the game were given access to use it.
That being said (and as Pi referenced in his lockdown of the previous thread), the pissing matches
between "name" players makes me think it would revert to the childlike playground antics that
have happened far too often lately.

Of course, all my ideas and thoughts are from the days when I had to trudge up hills, both ways,
in *gasp* stock vehicles to charge nodes. BUT, we didn't have all this bullshit back then so
there has to be some merit to the way things ran back then; maturity, common sense and a
feeling of community with your playing brethren.

On an off topic note, but for illustrative purposes of my last thought, I stumbled across some old
ONS videos (I think Colbye posted link to them), and in them, there was Pam(inator) playing like
she used to instead of the douchebag she became in later years (after I departed the ONS playing
field).

Rambling now, but you remaining diehards have got to put aside your differences and work together
instead of against eachother.
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
ideas (not mine, from the previous thread IIRC):
* reshuffle only recently added players/players joining after the match starts
* only shuffle at the beginning of the match
* make player-join actions random by 50% of the time swapping the last-joined guy with a newly joining guy (that one is cool IMO)
* base initial shuffle on more in-depth data than just PPH (match-specific PPH, win ratios, etc)
Thanks Pi!!!
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:10 PM   #4
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Thanks Pi. It will be very interesting to see how balanced the teams are over the next month.
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Old 07-22-2016, 12:05 AM   #5
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I am happy to say that now the balancer has been removed, more players seem to be willing to self balance the teams. In several matches tonight, several players have been willing to switch teams to at least attempt to balance things out. I was asked on a couple occasions and gladly did so.
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Old 07-22-2016, 12:07 PM   #6
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Yes, played a few matches last night, I know its not statistically significant, but the matches were pretty even and hard fought....
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Old 09-19-2016, 05:14 PM   #7
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Thread necro.

In my experience lately, the balance has been dreadful. I was open to experimentation (not like that, you pervs), but the balancer should be re-enabled.
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Old 09-19-2016, 06:10 PM   #8
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I'm open to experimentation (that way, too), and I agree with Dimshade... I think it was better with the balancer.
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:26 PM   #9
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I'm glad we did the experiment, but now it's time to bring the balancer back. One big issue that I've noticed is that the Red team always gets the extra person when the balancer is not enabled, instead of whichever team needs the help.
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Old 09-19-2016, 10:58 PM   #10
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Personally I would like to see the data on the post matches. I forget who did it, but someone counted up the matches and looked at how many were blowouts and how many were close matches (won by 1 or 2 points vs 3 or 4) while the balancer was on. I heard people mention both sides: "it's better with it off" and "it seems worse than before". I'd like to see a count comparison either pro or con the balancer- doesn't matter. I'd just like to know and compare.
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Old 09-20-2016, 12:23 AM   #11
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I thought Blackwood had been keeping track, but AFAIK he refuses to participate here.

The way the balancer is setup makes the way the balancer works seem flawed, and it seemed to get worse with time as stats were built up. My stance on it is fairly clear in my previous posts. If re-implemented here I would like to see some of the setting changed and possibly a re-evaluation of how rounds work. This may mitigate the flaws of how rounds are balanced.

I am a fan of how CEONNS does it, but it is a different thing really, with 1 round victories and mulligans if a bad blowout happens. I think the mulligan feature is crucial, because it can rebalanced based on the results of the previous round from what I can see, and my understanding of how it is setup on the other servers. This creates an exploit as teams that are one sided hold back to drag the round out past the mulligan window. That can be addressed as well, but will mean a mindset change on how we play here as well.

The flaws in the old balancer setup:
1) After round start joins are constrained on player count. IE influential players are placed on the team that needs it, unless there is no room there, so they get placed into the open spot, possibly making the blowout worse.
2) Balancer does not account for play style, basically, As an example, someone plays a mean game on TAL, but get them into Rail and they don't play as well. The map is different and is not in their comfort zone.

Configuring the balancer to adjust teams after a blow out fixes point 1 above (though creates the dragout issue, potentially.) It also solves for people waiting to join from the browser. That is a thing now. One round ends, people quit, look at the browser to see who is on what team, count up the open spots and join to get on the team you want 45 seconds after the round starts. Several players here are doing this now in attempt to cherry pick what team they are on.

I think it is a good idea for admins to move players. Community balancing does not work. There are maybe 5 people willing to switch teams, of which maybe 2 or 3 are strong players, able to turn a team around while the rest are support players, middle of the pack impact wise. This can create its own set of issues with some players. I recognize that some of the top players that can move a team to even up the round are NOT INTERESTED in fair matches, the play for a different reason then I do (I want the team to win, and don't care about my score.) They want a high score, and a round where they can own the whole map and rack up big points, Or, they want to just be able to screw around while the strong players carry the match to its end. Moving these players to the losing team will cause rage quitting and dissatisfaction because they enjoy the game differently then I do.

The community needs to decide what kind of game we play here.

Basically I feel as though there are 3 player types

1) Team is most important. We all want to succeed as a team and want the team to win. We are pro-balanced matches.
2) Agenda playing is more important. Either they want a high score and enjoy easy blowout matches where we can kick ass and punish the team that is less skilled or buried in the map and can't get out.
3) Player does not care what happens. They are here to take the SPMA out and spam with it, or cause havoc at bases/locked nodes, or drive the badger around with the top down, a gal in the gunner seat and an ice cold margarita in hand. They don't care as long as they can blow shit up, or troll, or screw off.

Again, I wish more people participated here to indicate their desires and hopes for the server and our game.

Andrew
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Old 09-20-2016, 11:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
I thought Blackwood had been keeping track, but AFAIK he refuses to participate here.

The way the balancer is setup makes the way the balancer works seem flawed, and it seemed to get worse with time as stats were built up. My stance on it is fairly clear in my previous posts. If re-implemented here I would like to see some of the setting changed and possibly a re-evaluation of how rounds work. This may mitigate the flaws of how rounds are balanced.

I am a fan of how CEONNS does it, but it is a different thing really, with 1 round victories and mulligans if a bad blowout happens. I think the mulligan feature is crucial, because it can rebalanced based on the results of the previous round from what I can see, and my understanding of how it is setup on the other servers. This creates an exploit as teams that are one sided hold back to drag the round out past the mulligan window. That can be addressed as well, but will mean a mindset change on how we play here as well.

The flaws in the old balancer setup:
1) After round start joins are constrained on player count. IE influential players are placed on the team that needs it, unless there is no room there, so they get placed into the open spot, possibly making the blowout worse.
2) Balancer does not account for play style, basically, As an example, someone plays a mean game on TAL, but get them into Rail and they don't play as well. The map is different and is not in their comfort zone.

Configuring the balancer to adjust teams after a blow out fixes point 1 above (though creates the dragout issue, potentially.) It also solves for people waiting to join from the browser. That is a thing now. One round ends, people quit, look at the browser to see who is on what team, count up the open spots and join to get on the team you want 45 seconds after the round starts. Several players here are doing this now in attempt to cherry pick what team they are on.

I think it is a good idea for admins to move players. Community balancing does not work. There are maybe 5 people willing to switch teams, of which maybe 2 or 3 are strong players, able to turn a team around while the rest are support players, middle of the pack impact wise. This can create its own set of issues with some players. I recognize that some of the top players that can move a team to even up the round are NOT INTERESTED in fair matches, the play for a different reason then I do (I want the team to win, and don't care about my score.) They want a high score, and a round where they can own the whole map and rack up big points, Or, they want to just be able to screw around while the strong players carry the match to its end. Moving these players to the losing team will cause rage quitting and dissatisfaction because they enjoy the game differently then I do.

The community needs to decide what kind of game we play here.

Basically I feel as though there are 3 player types

1) Team is most important. We all want to succeed as a team and want the team to win. We are pro-balanced matches.
2) Agenda playing is more important. Either they want a high score and enjoy easy blowout matches where we can kick ass and punish the team that is less skilled or buried in the map and can't get out.
3) Player does not care what happens. They are here to take the SPMA out and spam with it, or cause havoc at bases/locked nodes, or drive the badger around with the top down, a gal in the gunner seat and an ice cold margarita in hand. They don't care as long as they can blow shit up, or troll, or screw off.

Again, I wish more people participated here to indicate their desires and hopes for the server and our game.

Andrew
I have had problems switching to the burdened team in the past. Also, is it possible for an admin to switch out players? Never heard of this, nor would I know how to do it.
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Old 09-20-2016, 04:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzySlippers View Post
Personally I would like to see the data on the post matches. I forget who did it, but someone counted up the matches and looked at how many were blowouts and how many were close matches (won by 1 or 2 points vs 3 or 4) while the balancer was on. I heard people mention both sides: "it's better with it off" and "it seems worse than before". I'd like to see a count comparison either pro or con the balancer- doesn't matter. I'd just like to know and compare.
I did something like this. It could have been done better but I think I was on the right track. I will never be convinced that the balancer was working without seeing the numbers to prove it. Imo, things were much worse with it on. I've said it before that I appreciate Wormbo's work and I'm sure the forum posts will show that I was completely behind the balancer at first but eventually I came to believe that it wasn't working. Things were so bad, imo, that it blows my mind that people actually think it was working.
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Old 09-20-2016, 07:58 PM   #14
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Yet another idea is to kill two birds with one stone:

Decrease the score limit from 3 down to 2 points.

Put the balancer back in. Enable balancing after the first round is over and reset the scores back to zero if the first round was a blowout.

This would go a long ways towards shorter, balanced matches.
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Old 09-20-2016, 08:15 PM   #15
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I think he is a lurker, we need to keep working on him in-game to get in here, he makes some good points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
I thought Blackwood had been keeping track, but AFAIK he refuses to participate here.
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Old 09-20-2016, 11:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I think he is a lurker, we need to keep working on him in-game to get in here, he makes some good points.
Despite us not getting along, I frequently suggest he participate here. I have seen several other suggest it as well to no avail.

Andrew
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:46 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
Drive the badger around with the top down, a gal in the gunner seat and an ice cold margarita in hand.
Andrew
Had this cutie named Colbye in the my badger just last evening. Went to go parking on a hill and enjoy the view, maybe shoot off some sniper rounds at our last remaining node. Sure enough that DimSuck wrecked our ride for us. LOL
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Old 09-21-2016, 12:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
count up the open spots and join to get on the team you want 45 seconds after the round starts. Several players here are doing this now in attempt to cherry pick what team they are on.
Saw this too.

I'd say compared to just after the balancer was removed, its much worse now. Going to be hard to always get the balance for reasons listed above, but all in all I agree something is better than no balancing. I like the stats balancing--not just points (mino throws that way off), but other stats as well. Still though its hard to gauge in game effectiveness based purely on points...some folks are effective in say a turtle on a hill, railgun tank or certain vehicles but might not make a stat impact.

Blackwood, if you're lurking..just get on here.
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Old 09-22-2016, 03:11 PM   #19
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I'd like to point out there's still one last change to the EvenMatch stats tracking in the pipeline that I didn't get around to releasing yet. In addition to the generic tracking, there can also be map-specific tracking. That way players who are known to be better or worse on a particular map than they are on average are rated appropriately for initial team shuffling purposes. I can't promise any particular time when I will get around to get it released, but if there's interest I'll try to get it up within the next few weeks.
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Old 09-22-2016, 07:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormbo View Post
I'd like to point out there's still one last change to the EvenMatch stats tracking in the pipeline that I didn't get around to releasing yet. In addition to the generic tracking, there can also be map-specific tracking. That way players who are known to be better or worse on a particular map than they are on average are rated appropriately for initial team shuffling purposes. I can't promise any particular time when I will get around to get it released, but if there's interest I'll try to get it up within the next few weeks.
I think that would be very helpful if the balancer is put back on.
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