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Old 02-20-2016, 09:42 PM   #1
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I'm going to try to make a version of ONS-Magnanimous that is just the city part on both sides of the river.

Suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
What vehicles will work on this map? As far as ground vehicles, I think a Tiamat can successfully navigate the city streets since all 4 wheels steer the vehicle. If a Minotaur is to be considered on the map, I'd rather see the Megabadger. I think the Railgun, Basilisk, Alligator and the Aegis or the EONS Crusader (it can heal itself) would be good additions. The Node Exploder/Short Circuit would be cool too. The Cerberus as the lone truck variant.

As for flyers, I think the Draco could possibly work. It needs buildings/hills to hide behind and there are plenty of buildings. The Mirage Raptor, Flare Raptor and Falcon would be good flyers for the map.

Super weapons... Lagzilla and I messed around with the EONS Nuke Layer and we both like it.
Also, if anyone knows how to contact the original author for permission let me know. His name is ExJ. From what Gorzakk said in another thread in here he will probably say no so I'm not going to look for him unless someone knows where to find him.

Some of those buildings are fairly complicated added brushes. That scares me. I've heard it said that UnrealEd is not good for converting brushes to static meshes. Anyone know why? Cause I would really like to do that.


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Old 02-21-2016, 08:55 AM   #2
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Converting brushes to static meshes is suboptimal compared to creating those meshes in a dedicated 3D aplication, but it's still likely a lot better than complex brush constructions. However, brushes can take advantage of lightmaps, while static meshes will have to live with simple vertex lighting.

Just remember to put simple brushes (cubes, prisms, etc.) and antiportals (same concave shape as the brushes) into the buildings to ensure occlusion for network relevance and for the renderer, respectively.
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Old 02-21-2016, 12:14 PM   #3
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I'm glad you like it. I'll go ahead and work on it. I'm going to start over though. I want to make changes to the city before I duplicate it to the other side. There is a lot of terrain on the city side that I think is out of place, even though he used a texture there that makes it look less like ground. I would like to make some of those areas into plazas. I also want to finish the roads and figure out how to connect the two bridges on the ends to the other side. Right now they just run into buildings. I think I will stick with the alignment in the picture so that there are 3 bridges. Two isn't enough, imo. I would like to do four bridges but it's harder to line it up good for that.

As far as weapons as vehicles... I have different opinions than most on what is good. I will probably do a load-out along the lines of tasteful restraint and then someone else can come along and put all those I-need-to-compensate-for-shortcomings-in-my-life things in it.

The fog distance on the current version is very low and it's such a nice looking map that I want to raise it way up. This means though that most weapons won't reach the fog so I will either set the fog at the distance of the Sniper/LG or maybe make custom ones that reach the fog distance. I will also put some custom Goliaths on it that reach whatever fog distance I set. I will also need to put in a lot of anti-portals to help with the optimization.

I started a thread for suggestions... http://forum.omnipotents.com/showthr...274#post208274
Thanks for taking on this map and once completed, it will be a great addition to the server! If only Blackwood would create a forum account so he could give suggestions because he knows everything, his opinion is more important that mine.

Please keep the catwalks (on the side of the buildings) and jump pads (on the building rooftops and catwalks) that allow to the players to travel the building tops. I enjoy that on the current city side.

You said above that the fog distance is very low... What exactly does that mean? Its near impossible to fly the Cicada to the top of the building. Is that what you mean? Such as raising the ceiling?

Vehicles need to be discussed and you mentioned above that you have a taste of what will be good. Well, what will be good? I love Turbo K's latest version of Severance, he did a very good job at it and its probably my favorite edit that he has done. However, that map is rarely played and I honestly think its because the lack of a Minotaur. While Severance is not a TMU, its still a map with a lot of tanks. Its a shame because that version of Severance is awesome! I just don't want to see the same thing happen to this map. I guess an argument can be made that TaL is played a lot and it has no Minotaur.... But it has the Ion Tank which is extremely powerful on that map. I do like the Megabadger a lot more than the Minotaur. The Medgabadger can still one shot most vehicles however it doesn't one shot a node and the splash damage isn't as large. And a simple shot from the badger cannon can bounce it around.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:36 PM   #4
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You said above that the fog distance is very low... What exactly does that mean? Its near impossible to fly the Cicada to the top of the building. Is that what you mean? Such as raising the ceiling?

A low fog distance means you can't see very far like in D-Junkyard.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:56 PM   #5
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Converting brushes to static meshes is suboptimal compared to creating those meshes in a dedicated 3D aplication, but it's still likely a lot better than complex brush constructions. However, brushes can take advantage of lightmaps, while static meshes will have to live with simple vertex lighting.
Thanks, Wormbo, always good to get your feedback. I don't know the difference in lightmaps and vertex lighting. I guess as long as I don't have any issues I will keep the buildings as brushes. If I decide to convert them to static meshes I will put a static mesh one next to a brush one and see if I notice much difference in appearance.

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Just remember to put simple brushes (cubes, prisms, etc.) and antiportals (same concave shape as the brushes) into the buildings to ensure occlusion for network relevance and for the renderer, respectively.
This is a little confusing to me. I'm assuming you are talking about IF I convert them to static meshes. I was planning on putting anti-portals inside all the interior buildings, whether they are brushes or static meshes but why simple shapes also? I will try reading the technical manual that is that network relevance article to see if I understand. I'm assuming that the simple shapes should be located entirely within the anti-portals? What brush types for the simple shapes? Solid, semisolid, nonsolid?

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Thanks for taking on this map and once completed, it will be a great addition to the server! If only Blackwood would create a forum account so he could give suggestions because he knows everything, his opinion is more important that mine.
I thought Blackwood was Wormbo or Kamek or Crusha or one of those smart guys like that. I used to know but I forgot. Or is that Quadblack I'm thinking of. I take it he said something about this map? I find that even though he seems a little abrasive, I agree with what he says.

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Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
Please keep the catwalks (on the side of the buildings) and jump pads (on the building rooftops and catwalks) that allow to the players to travel the building tops. I enjoy that on the current city side.
I'm not changing any of that.

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Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
You said above that the fog distance is very low... What exactly does that mean? Its near impossible to fly the Cicada to the top of the building. Is that what you mean? Such as raising the ceiling?
The ceiling (or how high you can fly) is set by the Stallz. On this map it is set to about the height of the top of the lowest building. I don't know what I'll set it to yet. The fog is the fog. It's how far away things can be before they disappear.

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Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
Vehicles need to be discussed and you mentioned above that you have a taste of what will be good. Well, what will be good? I love Turbo K's latest version of Severance, he did a very good job at it and its probably my favorite edit that he has done. However, that map is rarely played and I honestly think its because the lack of a Minotaur. While Severance is not a TMU, its still a map with a lot of tanks. Its a shame because that version of Severance is awesome! I just don't want to see the same thing happen to this map. I guess an argument can be made that TaL is played a lot and it has no Minotaur.... But it has the Ion Tank which is extremely powerful on that map. I do like the Megabadger a lot more than the Minotaur. The Medgabadger can still one shot most vehicles however it doesn't one shot a node and the splash damage isn't as large. And a simple shot from the badger cannon can bounce it around.
What is good? Well, I can tell you what I would most likely never put in a map. Falcon, Wasp, Aurora, Alligator, Turtle, the ClusterBomb Arbalest, any Noskilz weapon, OMFG gun, Instagib guns, and several other things and I can't think of right now.

I think Severance doesn't get played because there's only the one way to the base area, and it's a long narrow canyon that takes forever to travel through. It's an old design concept that doesn't work well with the way people want to play these days. The Ion cannon killing you everytime you try to go up on the hills doesn't help. You could load that map up with vehicle candy and it wouldn't help. Only way to make it get played is open up another valley into the base. I was working on that but got bored with it.


Here are the changes I'm planning...

-Change skybox.
-Increase fog distance and change its color.
-Add Antiportals.
-Change cores/nodes to Onslaught Specials.
-Replace some of the terrain with plazas and parking lots.
-Finish roads.
-Widen center bridge.
-Remove under-construction building.
-Remove ruins where the destroyed Hell-Bender is.
-Lower volume on ambient sounds.
-Adjust teleporters.
-Rearrange windows on the outer buildings so they make more sense.
-Get rid of the ugly support beams between some of the outer buildings.
-Maybe change some of the buildings to static meshes.
-Maybe add ground floors on the buildings (this is not as easy as it sounds).
-Misc alignment tweaks of stuff.
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Old 02-21-2016, 03:38 PM   #6
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Cool! All those will be good changes. Thanks for taking on this project!

In the list of vehicles that you would never put on a map... you didn't mention the Tiamat!!!! Wohooo!
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:25 PM   #7
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The brushes for network occlusion can (even should) be invisible and solid (semi-solid might also work, but is bad for larger brushes - they need to be able to block trace hit tests), but the "simple" part about them really means "simpler than what you have now". And yes, you only need them as replacement brushes inside the new static meshes.

For AntiPortalActors the rule of thumb is: As big as possible and only just as complex as necessary to fill the area with a single convex shape.
APA don't even need to be entirely surrounded by the static mesh, as long as the parts that stick out don't have a chance to cover up anything of significant size. You can even take advantage of the fact that as static mesh is always rendered as a whole (unlike BSP), so the APA may stick out of inset window frames without any part of the SM behind that actually becoming unrendered.
That "same concave shape" should have been "same convex shape" and was really a convenience hint - you can use the builder brush to place them both at the same time. For course that's not by far a requirement.

The difference between vertex lighting and a lightmap texture is that vertex lighting essentially applies light to the vertices of the static mesh and the triangles of the SM simply interpolate the three light influences across the surface. That can look quite bad on large surfaces when the lighting is more detailed. A lightmap texture, on the other hand, essentially spreads out light reference points across the entire surface (as densely as you configure it in the surface properties) and interpolates between those reference points. That works really well on large BSP surfaces, but can potentially look badly on smaller detail surfaces within a larger surface.
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:25 PM   #8
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I won't be editing this map. Sorry Term.

Wormbo, thank you for the help. I always find your writings interesting. I apologize for wasting your time.
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:56 PM   #9
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I won't be editing this map. Sorry Term.

Wormbo, thank you for the help. I always find your writings interesting. I apologize for wasting your time.
That's okay. Thanks for looking into it.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:52 PM   #10
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I won't be editing this map. Sorry Term.

Wormbo, thank you for the help. I always find your writings interesting. I apologize for wasting your time.
May I?
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Old 03-01-2016, 01:54 PM   #11
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May I?
Yes, please do.

If you are planning to duplicate the city side over to the other side and have any questions then let me know.

Also, I have a day and a night version of this. I think the night is the original and the day was an edit by Lucid. Let me know if you want either one.
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Old 03-01-2016, 03:20 PM   #12
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May I?
Cool! Thanks for working on it!

Andrew
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:19 PM   #13
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Thanks Anonymous LOL for stepping up to work on this map!

Can you please put in a Tiamat?!?!
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Old 03-03-2016, 05:57 PM   #14
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Thanks Anonymous LOL for stepping up to work on this map!

Can you please put in a Tiamat?!?!
Sigh.
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Old 03-03-2016, 06:36 PM   #15
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Thanks Anonymous LOL for stepping up to work on this map!

Can you please put in a Tiamat?!?!
I know Lagzilla, Termi and that damn Tiamat!! lol
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Binger View Post
Yes, please do.

If you are planning to duplicate the city side over to the other side and have any questions then let me know.

Also, I have a day and a night version of this. I think the night is the original and the day was an edit by Lucid. Let me know if you want either one.
Yes please, I'd like both. Judging by the screens, it has potential to be a great map.
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:02 PM   #17
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Yes please, I'd like both. Judging by the screens, it has potential to be a great map.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/syo97psam7...6_ExJ.zip?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d02q9aksyt...9_ExJ.zip?dl=0

Edit: In case you're interested this is what I've done. The hill side is deleted and it has a new skybox with the fog matching the sky-ring so that the buildings fade out nicely instead of just popping away. I forget where I got that skybox but I'm sure it's stock stuff that came with the game. I did a little work to the city side like deleting some stuff but I'm not sure about everything I did. There might be some stuff I have set to hidden so if you check it out then make sure you un-hide everything.

This is, ofc, an unfinished map that's not playable as-is but in case you want to see where I was headed it will give you an idea.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fmzjlwvky8...V1-03.zip?dl=0

Last edited by Binger; 03-06-2016 at 12:01 AM..
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:45 PM   #18
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Thanks. What's hidden? Is it hidden through actor properties, or simply the viewport show/hide options (this shouldn't matter since it's reset after the editor is restarted)? I hope it's the latter, otherwise I don't know how to feasibly unhide those actors.

Judging from a quick glance, it needs a lot of terrain work to be done. In some parts, the terrain protrudes BSP/meshes where it shouldn't, and in other places the textures just don't make sense. The rest is in your list, and maybe some more. As for adding ground floors, it's actually quite doable since the buildings aren't static meshes.

Also, never use the editor default DXT3 light compression when building! Use RGB8 instead. It really makes a difference in some maps.


Last edited by Anonymous[Lolz]; 03-06-2016 at 11:01 PM..
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:29 PM   #19
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Thanks. What's hidden? Is it hidden through actor properties, or simply the viewport show/hide options (this shouldn't matter since it's reset after the editor is restarted)? I hope it's the latter, otherwise I don't know how to feasibly unhide those actors.
Just in the viewports. I don't do that very often but I know I was hiding some things on this map. I didn't know it resets when closing the editor. I always click the ShowAll button before saving but just wanted to be sure.

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...In some parts, the terrain protrudes BSP/meshes where it shouldn't, and in other places the textures just don't make sense. The rest is in your list, and maybe some more. As for adding ground floors, it's actually quite doable since the buildings aren't static meshes.
Where is it protruding the BSP/meshes? I didn't see any places like that that didn't seem intentional by the author. Or are you talking about my edit? There was some weirdness happening with the terrain on my edit. I thought I got it sorted out.

He used man-made materials for some of the terrain texture. It looks bad. Those areas are where I think the terrain should be replaced with BSP.

Ground floors are something I've tried in the past and I always gave up. I would say from the nearly complete lack of ground floors in UT2004 that a lot of others have also given up on it. I'm not sure why it's so hard. Lack of meshes for doors is part of it but I think also that ground floors are just a lot more complicated and require more creativity.

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Also, never use the editor default DXT3 light compression when building! Use RGB8 instead. It really makes a difference in some maps.
Wow, thanks. I wish I would have known that years ago.


Just so you know, me backing out of this had nothing to do with this map specifically.

Also, those first two links of the complete maps are untouched by me. Those zip files are the same ones I downloaded.
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Old 03-13-2016, 02:40 PM   #20
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Where is it protruding the BSP/meshes? I didn't see any places like that that didn't seem intentional by the author. Or are you talking about my edit? There was some weirdness happening with the terrain on my edit. I thought I got it sorted out.
Unfortunately I did spot some areas where brushes stuck out where they shouldn't have, but I think I got most of those areas.

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He used man-made materials for some of the terrain texture. It looks bad. Those areas are where I think the terrain should be replaced with BSP.
Are you referring to the concrete squares? I changed it to dirt/sand in most areas, it looks much better now.

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Ground floors are something I've tried in the past and I always gave up. I would say from the nearly complete lack of ground floors in UT2004 that a lot of others have also given up on it. I'm not sure why it's so hard. Lack of meshes for doors is part of it but I think also that ground floors are just a lot more complicated and require more creativity.
There are a lot of maps where one can copy/paste meshes, but it definitely takes time to arrange the objects.

How can I rotate the terrain to mirror the map? I'm not quite at this stage yet, but after my test, using the actor rotate tool or the orthographic viewport didn't work.
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