Unreal Tournament Unreal Servers Discussion

Go Back   Omnip)o(tentS Forums > SERVERS > Unreal Tournament
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2016, 06:55 PM   #1
Enyo
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 152
Default Team Switching
Reply With Quote


OK, I just want some admin clarification here. The server rules clearly state:

Team switching : Stay on the team the server decided to put you on. Period. We do not care whether you do not like the color of the team you are on or a friend you want to play with is on the other team.

Today, Darkmethodz was on our team on Nevermore and decided he should switch to the other team to "balance" things out - something he does often BTW. That was enough to throw the balance in favor of the other team. I asked why he switched and he responded that one-sided matches are boring. Lagzilla, spectating, chimed in saying that it was acceptable to team switch if the teams are badly balanced. Since when? I asked, Lag said it was discussed on the forums a few months ago, but I can't find that discussion. Suddenly players like Darkmetchodz and Lagzilla are allowed to be the arbiters of fairness? So when the team balancer creates a stacked team anyway, I can just on my own decide to switch out of my own sense of fairness?

Team switching has always been NOT allowed far as I can remember. Please tell me we're not opening this pandora's box of allowing players to unilaterally decide it's fine to start switching. If so, that's crap. Just asking for admin clarification here.
Enyo is offline  
Old 01-17-2016, 10:26 AM   #2
dimshade
Getting there...

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 557
Default
Reply With Quote


http://forum.omnipotents.com/showthr...t=14402&page=2
__________________
"Conan! What is best in life?" ... "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
dimshade is offline  
Old 01-17-2016, 01:27 PM   #3
Enyo
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 152
Default
Reply With Quote


Thanks Dimshade, that sort of clears it up for me. Seems like an awfully fuzzy/gray line to me though. I get that switching is the right thing to do in a case like Binger points out, where several people leave on a team and it gets left with a bunch of bots, leaving the human players severely unbalanced, like 4 vs 2. Then, I agree, people should switch to balance it out.

BUT, I don't think that applies in the case like I described where it was close to a full server and both teams had an even number of human players. The switching of one highly skilled player is sometimes enough to throw the balance in favor of the team they switch to, depending on the skill make-up of the teams, which is exactly what happened. The next round, my team got demolished. How is that fair to the team he left? I think that type of switching should fully be left to the discretion and approval of an admin that's present, and if one isn't, then don't switch.
Enyo is offline  
Old 01-17-2016, 01:38 PM   #4
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 693
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Suddenly players like Darkmetchodz and Lagzilla are allowed to be the arbiters of fairness?
You asked a question, I answered it. Nothing to do with allowing anything.

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 01-17-2016, 06:08 PM   #5
Enyo
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 152
Default
Reply With Quote


Thanks for the smart-assness Lagzilla, but I don't think the question is clearly answered. And sorry, it has everything to do with allowing something, i.e. team switching based on an individual player's idea of fairness and balance. Based on your answer, and Darkmethodz's logic, every time my team wins, I'm justified in switching because I don't think the balance is fair. I guess that's what I'll start doing and then wonder why everyone is whining when I do it.
Enyo is offline  
Old 01-17-2016, 10:15 PM   #6
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 693
Default
Reply With Quote


I don't feel it was that smart ass answer. Surprising really, since the tone of your post certainly entitled me to some retourt, which I did not bother with.

Also, don't speak to my logic, or Darkmethodz. In my case you for sure have no idea what I am thinking, and using your 3lb drill hammer approach is not what I mean or even am implying.

I could relay my thoughts, but in this case, I suspect it is pointless due to your hostility.

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 01-18-2016, 03:58 PM   #7
Turbo K
Community Veteran

 
Turbo K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,458
Default
Reply With Quote


When the server is less than half-full, I'll switch to the losing team if it's one-sided and the map is one I'm good at.
Turbo K is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 05:14 AM   #8
BoFox
Just Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 84
Default
Reply With Quote


Just received some flak for switching teams (first time I've done that in like, months, or forever..) ---

I was on a map that I kind of liked, then was winning - so I switched to the losing team with 2 bots on their side (while my team didn't have any) and helped the other team win at the very last minute. If I didn't do that, the map would've been over with no more rounds left. A couple players didn't like this.

What I did was get rid of a bot, as my first team still had one extra player anyway, with 0 bots. The other team that I switched to then had only 1 bot left as a result.

This is basically the only time I've been put under some serious flak for doing this. So umm, I guess I'll not do it again to disappoint the efforts of the team...

Rules aren't clear here, eh?? If teamswitching is always forbidden, simply have the ability to do this removed from the server mod.

I ain't perfect - didn't mean to piss off a couple players, so I'll keep that in mind next time.

Another thing is I'll try to remember to disconnect from the server at the end of the match, whenever I go to piss, because sometimes pissing takes a while, and then other players think I'm evil for idling afk. Geez.. alright, I'll be more careful there too!

Cheers - I'm improving myself like always.
BoFox is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 10:45 AM   #9
Terminator
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 720
Default
Reply With Quote


Bo Fox, if what you have said is true, then I commend you for switching teams to help the losing team. Under the circumstances you mentioned, team switching to the losing team is allowed. Team switching is wrong when a player on the losing team spectates and then joins the winning team. That is not allowed.
Terminator is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 11:35 AM   #10
Enyo
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 152
Default
Reply With Quote


Sorry but it wasn't 5 vs. 3 as BoFox said. His team had 5 players and we had 4 - Yamashita came in at the beginning of round 3 to give us our 4th player - we had one bot. BoFox's switch essentially gave us a 2 player advantage, albeit one was a bot.

And it wasn't exactly a slaughter, we took your team to overtime for 3 rounds, with a lot of back and forth. Even though it benefitted my team, I told him to switch back because the balance of teams was then truly way out of whack. With him, we came back against a 100 vs. 35 point core deficit to win in overtime.

And his reply to why he switch had nothing to do with balance, his reply was, "I really like this map and wanted to play it some more."

Again, even though it benefitted my team, I was probably more irritated about it than Spike was. I just don't like the idea of any player being able to arbitrarily decide on their own it's up to them to "balance" the teams, or worse extend play on the map because they like it.
Enyo is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 11:59 AM   #11
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 693
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Again, even though it benefitted my team, I was probably more irritated about it than Spike was. I just don't like the idea of any player being able to arbitrarily decide on their own it's up to them to "balance" the teams, or worse extend play on the map because they like it.
To be fair, you don't like any balancing or switching of any kind, even if the server is doing it... You have said so many times in game.

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 12:41 PM   #12
BoFox
Just Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 84
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Sorry but it wasn't 5 vs. 3 as BoFox said. His team had 5 players and we had 4 - Yamashita came in at the beginning of round 3 to give us our 4th player - we had one bot. BoFox's switch essentially gave us a 2 player advantage, albeit one was a bot.

And it wasn't exactly a slaughter, we took your team to overtime for 3 rounds, with a lot of back and forth. Even though it benefitted my team, I told him to switch back because the balance of teams was then truly way out of whack. With him, we came back against a 100 vs. 35 point core deficit to win in overtime.

And his reply to why he switch had nothing to do with balance, his reply was, "I really like this map and wanted to play it some more."

Again, even though it benefitted my team, I was probably more irritated about it than Spike was. I just don't like the idea of any player being able to arbitrarily decide on their own it's up to them to "balance" the teams, or worse extend play on the map because they like it.
Maybe you were right - I don't remember exactly if there were 2 bots or just 1 at that very moment - but I did balance the teams in terms of getting rid of the bots. Later on, I asked you guys if you wanted me to switch back, but there was no response. One said, no not at this time (extremely rude power-tripping guy called Spike, I think? Was that his name?)

Well, since it really rubbed a couple of you the wrong way, I won't be doing that again. Never received so much flak for it, ever, so whoops! Me no do that again! I do not want to upset you guys by stealing your vehicles or whatever - let alone teamswitch again. If I did that, I'd be driving you guys away from the game, and then it'd die just like DeathWarrant did. So, me not do again! Very important to not irritate the noobs in any way! It was actually my first time playing the version of the map with 2 Shock Mantas.

.....

BTW, these aren't really shock mantas - but almost like that. It'd be cool to have mantas that can do actual shock combo that is much bigger and more powerful than the combo from the ordinary shock rifle gun.

_______

Oh, bottom line: Would it be a good idea to make it automatic for teams to be balanced if there are bots on just 1 side, and if one guy is switched, it gets rid of the bot on the other side (by typing "teams")?

Bots actually play really dumb to try to give the other side a win, and then play more aggressively the next round to even the score, and then it's back to the first round tactics (or vice versa). Gosh, how these bots irritate!

Edit, another reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
To be fair, you don't like any balancing or switching of any kind, even if the server is doing it... You have said so many times in game.

Andrew
Hmm, automatic balancing bothers me for a split-second when I'm all disoriented, and then I just move on and enjoy the same crap that is only a game.
BoFox is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 01:02 PM   #13
hardspike
Server Admin


 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Matrix
Posts: 1,059
Default
Reply With Quote


Wish I had time for a detailed reply, but I'll just say you ignored Enyo and I when asked repeatedly in game about your team switch. Sorry if I was rude and power tripping but I was trying to get your attention.
hardspike is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 01:19 PM   #14
BoFox
Just Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 84
Default
Reply With Quote


Ahh, that was you, hardspike? I thought you were just some new arsehole who somehow got admin powers.

No detailed reply needed, ok - no worries, just a game, and I'm not doing that again without asking all of you guys FIRST!!!!!!!

Cheers and to a good game!
BoFox is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 02:34 PM   #15
Enyo
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 152
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
To be fair, you don't like any balancing or switching of any kind, even if the server is doing it... You have said so many times in game.
About 98% true... correct I don't like the auto-balancer at all, and I am far from alone in that sentiment. Not the point here though.

No, I don't like players unilaterally deciding on their own to switch to try and balance things out. I think that should be at the discretion of an admin, or at the very least a player wanting to switch should ask if everyone present is OK with it first. If anyone objects, don't do it. Typically, when someone actually does ask if it's cool to switch, the server has few players and things are badly unbalanced, in which case most people will say go for it, including myself.

An example scenario that happens a lot that I don't like is this:
Team 1 has: 1 high-skill(HS) player, 3 mid-skill(MS) and 1 low-skill(LS); Team 2: 1 HS, 2 MS, 1 LS and a bot (yes, this happens with the auto-balance on). Team 2 likely loses, often in overtime, but not a slaughter. After 2 long rounds, Team 1's high-skill player decides to switch to "even things out." But now the teams are: Team 1: 0 HS, 3 MS, 1 LS and a bot (if the server actually switches the bot), Team 2: 2 HS, 2 MS, 1 LS Team 2 then slaughters Team 1 for the rest of the match. Meanwhile players on Team 1 gripe-text "WTF" and start leaving.

Point is, if you think teams are badly unbalanced and want to switch to even it up, just say so and practice a little common courtesy by making sure everyone affected is OK with it first. Is that really too much to ask?
Enyo is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 08:00 PM   #16
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 693
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
About 98% true... correct I don't like the auto-balancer at all, and I am far from alone in that sentiment. Not the point here though.

No, I don't like players unilaterally deciding on their own to switch to try and balance things out. I think that should be at the discretion of an admin, or at the very least a player wanting to switch should ask if everyone present is OK with it first. If anyone objects, don't do it. Typically, when someone actually does ask if it's cool to switch, the server has few players and things are badly unbalanced, in which case most people will say go for it, including myself.

An example scenario that happens a lot that I don't like is this:
Team 1 has: 1 high-skill(HS) player, 3 mid-skill(MS) and 1 low-skill(LS); Team 2: 1 HS, 2 MS, 1 LS and a bot (yes, this happens with the auto-balance on). Team 2 likely loses, often in overtime, but not a slaughter. After 2 long rounds, Team 1's high-skill player decides to switch to "even things out." But now the teams are: Team 1: 0 HS, 3 MS, 1 LS and a bot (if the server actually switches the bot), Team 2: 2 HS, 2 MS, 1 LS Team 2 then slaughters Team 1 for the rest of the match. Meanwhile players on Team 1 gripe-text "WTF" and start leaving.

Point is, if you think teams are badly unbalanced and want to switch to even it up, just say so and practice a little common courtesy by making sure everyone affected is OK with it first. Is that really too much to ask?
So the winning team is going to consent to losing a player? I bet that flies with a few of us... but only a few. You will either get dead air or don't switch against the rules.

You are far from alone, it's true. There are at least 2 other people who feel the way you do. Out of the 50 or 60 that play here.

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 08:44 PM   #17
Terminator
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 720
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
So the winning team is going to consent to losing a player? I bet that flies with a few of us... but only a few. You will either get dead air or don't switch against the rules.

You are far from alone, it's true. There are at least 2 other people who feel the way you do. Out of the 50 or 60 that play here.

Andrew
And one of those two players hasn't been seen in months.
Terminator is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 09:20 PM   #18
hardspike
Server Admin


 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Matrix
Posts: 1,059
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by BoFox View Post
Just received some flak for switching teams (first time I've done that in like, months, or forever..) ---

I was on a map that I kind of liked, then was winning - so I switched to the losing team with 2 bots on their side (while my team didn't have any) and helped the other team win at the very last minute. If I didn't do that, the map would've been over with no more rounds left. A couple players didn't like this.

What I did was get rid of a bot, as my first team still had one extra player anyway, with 0 bots. The other team that I switched to then had only 1 bot left as a result.

This is basically the only time I've been put under some serious flak for doing this. So umm, I guess I'll not do it again to disappoint the efforts of the team...

Rules aren't clear here, eh?? If teamswitching is always forbidden, simply have the ability to do this removed from the server mod.

I ain't perfect - didn't mean to piss off a couple players, so I'll keep that in mind next time.

Another thing is I'll try to remember to disconnect from the server at the end of the match, whenever I go to piss, because sometimes pissing takes a while, and then other players think I'm evil for idling afk. Geez.. alright, I'll be more careful there too!

Cheers - I'm improving myself like always.
As you can see teamswitching is a sensitive subject around here.

First, let me say that I'm glad you signed up for a forum account today and posting here. I was surprised you didn't do that sooner, but am glad you did. This board is a big part of the community and what makes the server successful. You seem like a stand-up guy. And I look forward to trying to comprehend your tips about CRT monitors and mouse settings and the like in the other thread...

But, about the team switch. I want you to understand it not from the perspective of "Enyo and hardspike were pissed at me" but from the perspective of how the rule is generally interpreted here. Most regulars are OK with a team switch when there's is a big disparity in bot count from one side to the other AND the team with all the bots is getting pounded, early in the map or round. In that situation it is somewhat honorable to request a team switch because you're going to help the little guy.

Last night that wasn't the situation. A player switched from the winning team late in the third round after winning the first two in overtime. The map was almost over and it wasn't a totally lopsided fight. Up until that point it had been a fairly competitive match. The player switched for apparently selfish reasons, because he really liked the map and didn't want it to end. That was mentioned when queried in game. The bot count balance wasn't at issue at all last night, but was brought up as a justification in this thread. (Maybe you were thinking it last night, but it was not mentioned, so I won't claim to know your motivation)

Something else worth noting: that particular switch put your original team down two players. At the time I didn't realize you had switched, figured someone had left. I did notice that we were down two players, but it was late in the round and we had most of the map and I figured it highly unlikely that a little unbalance like that would matter. I didn't want to be a douche and call "teams" because it would look petty. About a minute later the other team had gained some key nodes and the turn-around was inevitable. Eventually a bot or a human joined and evened it out but it was too late. So the balanced simply flipped from one team to the other, a) because the original team ended up two players short and b) because there were two highly skilled players (Bo_Fox and Enyo) on one team and no highly skilled players on the other.

To summarize: the switch was a bit of a selfish move and not one that is condoned here.

Finally, I'd like to re-iterate, I'm not mad at you about it and I'm glad you're here on the forums and in the game. Just wanted to shed some light on the gray area of team switching.

And for the record, maybe removing the button to change teams isn't such a bad idea.
hardspike is offline  
Old 04-18-2016, 10:15 PM   #19
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 693
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardspike View Post
And for the record, maybe removing the button to change teams isn't such a bad idea.
Without more administrative support on the server I would strongly urge us to NOT remove the button.

If there are guidelines for when you can switch, then there should be a way to switch.

If we had more active admins on the server they could move players around on teams and reduce the need for the button.

I am always confused by why there are a few people who play on Omni that insist a fair fight is not possible more frequently, and little desire to try to even up matches. One sided battles empty the server, frustrate people and eventually lead to people finding something else to do with their free time. I would think the small stroke gained from winning a one sided round could be sacrificed for the community and good of the game/server/players.

And by a few, I mean like the same 3 people.

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 04-19-2016, 02:30 AM   #20
Enyo
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 152
Default
Reply With Quote


It would be nice if we could have an open discussion about what constitutes unjustified team switching without, how was it you put it one time Lagzilla, diminishing or disparaging one's point of view or opinion. So much for that, I guess, because you sure seem to like to shit all over every idea I put forth. Nothing but one sarcastic, denigrating attack after another without contributing something useful to the conversation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
To be fair, you don't like any balancing or switching of any kind, even if the server is doing it... You have said so many times in game.
Andrew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
You are far from alone, it's true. There are at least 2 other people who feel the way you do. Out of the 50 or 60 that play here.
Andrew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
I am always confused by why there are a few people who play on Omni that insist a fair fight is not possible more frequently, and little desire to try to even up matches...
And by a few, I mean like the same 3 people.
Andrew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
So the winning team is going to consent to losing a player? I bet that flies with a few of us... but only a few. You will either get dead air or don't switch against the rules.
Andrew
In fact today, after I posted the thought about asking fellow players if they mind a team switch when things are grossly unbalanced, I was playing on Dreamus with 5 players on each team. Later in the game, things got out of balance with 5 on my team and 3 on the other. I asked if anyone cared if I switched... lo and behold I got 4 responses saying, "go for it" and no dissenters. So I switched, my team lost anyway, and that was OK. At least it made for more fair of a fight. Fairness is what we're striving for here isn't it?

What BoFox did was extremely unfair (and like spike said, I ain't mad at you Bo) as it allowed my team to run all over hardspike's. Why is it so hard to get everyone to agree that switching and creating that type of situation is extremely unfair when fairness is what we all seem to want? I'm all for switching to even things out, when it's truly unbalanced, but I've seen far too many times in the last couple months people switching when that is simply not the case. THAT type of behavior leads to people leaving the game, and it should be discouraged.

This whole discussion wasn't even about the auto-balancer, but since Lagzilla decided to interject it into the conversation as a petty way to attack me, I feel the need for a rebuttal. You see Lagzilla, I actually respect your point of view and once agreed that an auto-balancer was a good idea, in theory. But in practice it just doesn't seem to accomplish what it's intended to do in the eyes of more than just 2 or 3 payers. I'm all for fair matches, never once has anyone ever heard me say I like the teams being unbalanced. I can name off a few folks I played with the last couple nights that expressed their dislike at least once for the balancer because it often doesn't balance teams fairly. If I name you wrongly, apologies, going off memory here:
Spike
Smoker
Vincent
Xexx
GTKU
Kronix
tres-gonads
McLovin
Provert
Anonymous
Duh
Sarge (he hated it so much he quit playing here)

A few more than 3, and that's just what I can remember over the last 2 days. You're welcome to verify with any of them on their balancer opinions, and if I misrepresented anyone, I will publicly apologize to them.

And just because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
And one of those two players hasn't been seen in months.
Thanks for piling on and not actually contributing to the discussion at hand either, Terminator. Now, in a soft whispery voice, say to yourself, "Dooouuuucccchhe."

Last edited by Enyo; 04-19-2016 at 03:15 AM..
Enyo is offline  
Reply


Go Back   Omnip)o(tentS Forums > SERVERS > Unreal Tournament

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Enough with the team switching already! hardspike Onslaught 60 12-27-2011 02:50 PM
Gioarmani team switching Tommybg2003 Report a Chode 6 01-25-2010 11:29 AM
Team Switching PastorOfMuppets Onslaught 6 09-17-2007 05:42 AM
Team switching in ONS MstrGunslinger Onslaught 29 04-23-2007 04:29 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.