Onslaught Onslaught Server Discussion

Go Back   Omnip)o(tentS Forums > SERVERS > Unreal Tournament > Onslaught
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #1
Mr.Crow
Server Sponsor

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 463
Default Balancing
Reply With Quote


Hi all fellow forum readers,

I recently sent a pm to GlueEater and decided to post it for you too.


Hi Glue,

Hope all is well in your neck of the world.
I support your efforts in trying to get back to what is being called "classic" UT, but I think it would map out the end of this server. As one person said on the forums recently, the new vehicles keep the game fresh and exciting and if we kill that spirit, the game is over. I think that is what happened to Gorzack. His thinking was different from others and the vehicles and weaponry he came up with were too much for some, the people complained and he left, feeling unappreciated and disliked.

I do think the balance is way off though. The vehicle loadout is the same for both sides , but the fliers have a big advantage. When you are in a ground vehicle and you see another ground vehicle moving or not, it is predictable and so are you, (in a ground vehicle), battle, and one is a winner. My point is, a tank or whatever you are in cannot outrun an AVRIL or whatever you choose to fight with. The fliers can outrun rockets and unless your ping is low, you can't hit them with shock or lightning gun, making them almost unstoppable. Huge unfair advantage in my opinion and I have called out a few that do this on a regular basis, not that it does any good.

I would like to see more balance put into the game, not revert back to older vehicles, but balance the game as it is. The arms race comment that was put in this thread by someone is not accurate, I asked for faster more accurate AVRILs, not more powerful ones. New weapons are cool although not being brought to the table, I thought of a few but fell on deaf ears. I take the mino or badger or whatever is available to play with and enjoy most games played.

Recently I was trying to kill you on tanks a lot ppc version and I could not keep up with you on foot. I was right behind you at one point and I think you jumping and running prevented me from getting you, so your comment about you not being able to make a difference, I disagree. In my opinion you are one of the best still in this game.

The life of the game depends on what we do. Lets work together and balance the playing field.

See you in the fray


Racer X
Mr.Crow is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:59 PM   #2
Carpe Diem
seize this !! .l..

 
Carpe Diem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,634
Default
Reply With Quote


my thoughts/comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Crow View Post
His thinking was different from others and the vehicles and weaponry he came up with were too much for some, the people complained and he left, feeling unappreciated and disliked.
I can tell you emphatically that was not the case. I knew Gorzzie very well and while he was indeed a lightning
rod for the haters his leaving the game had nothing to do with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Crow View Post
The arms race comment that was put in this thread by someone is not accurate, I asked for faster more accurate AVRILs, not more powerful ones.
LOL. And then, someone will want [insert vehicle] changed because the new Avrils are killing them too much.
Whent that happens, there will be rumblings about some other vehicle/weapon needing adjustment. That progression
pretty much describes the essence of an arms race to me. Then we'll end up with the Solar-Binary-Fission-Xbomb. You
know the one ? Detonate it and it destroys all the opponents nodes, locked or not. Ya, that would be great...


People around here have described me as "old school". Guilty. I love UT2004 for what it was out of the box, and it's evolution
to the point that the first generation of supers appeared. A fine balance existed then, one that Gorzz was awesome at manipulating.
As with everything, the excitement of new toys grew and now we have eight garages full of fancy vehicles with glitzy bells and whistles.
Personally, I'm not a fan.


*
These are just my own views. Since I don't play ONS anymore, they pretty well don't matter. What does matter to me, (and to
the other )o('s I assume) is the balancing act to try keep all players relatively happy. This means give and take. Some understand
that, and then there are others who are unwilling to move off of their feelings. And that's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinions.
But as server administrators we are obligated (to the best of our abilities) to to look beyond our own feelings and views to "do our job".
While I know I'm not always successful, I try my best to assure that the community is placed before myself.


__________________
Black holes are where God divided by 0. - Steven Wright






Carpe Diem is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:01 AM   #3
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 865
Default
Reply With Quote


Racer has a good point... and if you look back we were talking about this years ago when I started playing here.

Wasps are too hard to kill and to powerful. Falcons are not far behind.

I don't think this applies to the big tanks nearly as much as mentioned in Racers post as tanks are more predictable, and have a distinct weakness.

I am sure I will be told to man up, and I have tried my hardest to get better at taking these fast fliers down... but I have made little to no progress in 3 years. Sadly, due to my poor aim and low FPS I end up using a chain gun on the fliers, which is to say I am no match.

Should a flier be able to take out 2000hp with 3 hits? And move at top speed with high maneuverability? Coupled with fast respawn time? A wasp respawns almost immediately on most maps...

I have to say, there are 4 or 5 people that like and are good at using these fast fliers, the other 95% are annoyed at best, miserable at worst... and 70% of us are outmatched...

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:28 AM   #4
Bastard
Omni Annoyance

 
Bastard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 2,198
Default
Reply With Quote


Every vehicle has a use. I understand people get mad when a wasp takes out their mino or levi in a couple of shots. But every since I've played on the OMNI ONS server you need them. People camp the mino, take it and then camp a node with it in most matches. That gets annoying. The fact that people bitch and moan that the wasp it to fast and to powerful in every game. The only map i know of or that we play is Magciles or something like that. There use to be two. I know at node 8 and 9 for each team and in the previous version they also spawned at 3 and 4. The wasp is an essential part of the game to take out the big vehicles and move their team forward. Don't take this next part the wrong way. How is it the games fault that some people just arn't good enough to hit is with a shock rifle or a lightning gun. I understand some peoples computers are not as good as others but that doesn't mean that particular vehicle should get removed or toned down for a couple of people that cant handle it. That's how I think of it.
__________________
“Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
Send a message via AIM to Bastard Send a message via Yahoo to Bastard Bastard is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 10:04 AM   #5
Carpe Diem
seize this !! .l..

 
Carpe Diem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,634
Default
Reply With Quote


As great as the game is, and as much as it's a miracle that 20-30 people can be sitting at their PC's spread
across North America and play a game that demands split second reactions, we are still bound by our pings.
Players with lower pings (and I'm talking the sum 36's) have a DISTINCT advantage over anyone pinging
60+. Get a 20 in a Wasp or Falcon and it is readily apparent. I don't know the 4 or 5 players you're referring
to 'Zilla, but I'd be willing to lay down some cash that they are low pingers.

I don't know if this could apply to ONS, but currently 3SPN (the TAM/Freon mod) has been modified to
included ping compensation. It levels the playing field in that the lower pings are more middle, and the
higher pings come down to the middle level as well (players in the middle won't notice much difference).
__________________
Black holes are where God divided by 0. - Steven Wright






Carpe Diem is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 09:17 PM   #6
Lagzilla
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 865
Default
Reply With Quote


Watched it tonight... Even used the wasp to see how it played out for me... Meh. Ping was 30-60, FPS was only 35. I play on a laptop....

Andrew
Lagzilla is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:26 PM   #7
GlueEater
Getting there...
 
GlueEater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 441
Default
Reply With Quote


Look Guys. We are at the point where no one is going to be completely happy anymore. Years ago we had numerous servers to choose from and could go play on whichever one had what we were looking for. Not anymore. Omni is it. I know I'm guilty of trying to bring back the old Onslaught gameplay against the wills of many others. I realize that's not going to happen. The best I can hope for is what we had last night with Tyrant. Had fun with Term and Goose fighting for the middle node in the chaos that is Tyrant.
For those of you in love with the vehicles I've noticed the same cynical opinions apply. I'm chuckling at the comments regarding the OP fliers on MI. Many of you love killing badgers, scorps and others smaller vehicles with the mino, hurricane, dragon, etc. on Dria but then get mad because your Mino was taken down in 3 hits by the wasp in MI. Really? Mad because your OP tank was taken down by an even more OP flier. And now we want Avrils that will track and take down wasps like they're raptors.
I can't help but see a circle being played out.

Badger easily kills guy on foot-> Bio, Aegis, cobra easily kills badger->mino, dragon easily kills bio, cobra, aegis.->wasp, falcon, easily kill mino, dragon-> now we are back to looking for a way for a guy on foot to easily kill wasp or falcon.

Oh boy. I think we need to knock off all the polls and admin should just put a healthy dose of different maps on the server. Couple tank maps, couple foot maps, some new ones, some old ones and then tell everyone to just shut up and play. New years resolution from Glue is to quit griping about all you tank whores and just be glad you are still playing.

Dammit.
GlueEater is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:44 PM   #8
Carpe Diem
seize this !! .l..

 
Carpe Diem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,634
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by GlueEater View Post
and admin should just put a healthy dose of different maps on the server. Couple tank maps, couple foot maps, some new ones, some old ones and then tell everyone to just shut up and play.
ya well, been there done that. then the bitchin' goes off the scale.

__________________
Black holes are where God divided by 0. - Steven Wright






Carpe Diem is offline  
Old 12-10-2013, 05:26 AM   #9
Bastard
Omni Annoyance

 
Bastard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 2,198
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem View Post
ya well, been there done that. then the bitchin' goes off the scale.

People don't like change of the server. If they cant use their favorite vehicle that kills in one shot they don't play. I remember throwback week or whatever they call it with all old maps. There was only me and a handful of people playing for that whole week, was nice. HEY, lets just have old maps and let everyone leave?
__________________
“Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
Send a message via AIM to Bastard Send a message via Yahoo to Bastard Bastard is offline  
Old 12-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #10
Binger
.

 
Binger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,391
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by GlueEater View Post
...Oh boy. I think we need to knock off all the polls and admin should just put a healthy dose of different maps on the server. Couple tank maps, couple foot maps, some new ones, some old ones and then tell everyone to just shut up and play. New years resolution from Glue is to quit griping about all you tank whores and just be glad you are still playing.

Dammit.
Even though I try to fight for what I want, what you suggested is what I think should be done. There is too much of a split in opinions and it will be very difficult to make everyone happy or even to come to a compromise. That's why I liked the two servers (but that's a whole other argument).
Binger is offline  
Old 12-10-2013, 10:57 PM   #11
Danno'68
Some call me....Danno

 
Danno'68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 442
Default
Reply With Quote


Guys, I'd like to propose an option that goes something like this...

I haven't done mods in over 4 years, but in the last week I've start re-learning how to update vehicles. And like what I said in a different thread is that I think it would be
a good idea to nerf the 3 most overpowered vehicles instead of making new countermeasures. They are the Falcon, Wasp and Mino. So I am going to offer up my somewhat
limited modding services so we can see if a happy medium can be obtained.

The target map that I'd like to use for the 2 new fliers would be an V4 of the Crossfire map I did years ago. Currently, the V3 contains at various nodes a Falcon, a Pheonix and the center node spawns a Wasp (yes, I was a bit insane back in the day, and yes, I remember Carpe warning me about potential game play). This V4 map could be the playground we use to try and hone in on more balanced fliers. As far as a map for the toned down mino, I'm up for suggestions.

So, I'm throwing this out there to give the other modders/mappers a heads up. Hopefully this will save someone time in making other weapons/vehicles in search for finding a better balance in gameplay when these 3 vehicles are used.
Danno'68 is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:44 AM   #12
Turbo K
Community Veteran

 
Turbo K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,536
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno'68 View Post
Guys, I'd like to propose an option that goes something like this...

I haven't done mods in over 4 years, but in the last week I've start re-learning how to update vehicles. And like what I said in a different thread is that I think it would be
a good idea to nerf the 3 most overpowered vehicles instead of making new countermeasures. They are the Falcon, Wasp and Mino. So I am going to offer up my somewhat
limited modding services so we can see if a happy medium can be obtained.

The target map that I'd like to use for the 2 new fliers would be an V4 of the Crossfire map I did years ago. Currently, the V3 contains at various nodes a Falcon, a Pheonix and the center node spawns a Wasp (yes, I was a bit insane back in the day, and yes, I remember Carpe warning me about potential game play). This V4 map could be the playground we use to try and hone in on more balanced fliers. As far as a map for the toned down mino, I'm up for suggestions.

So, I'm throwing this out there to give the other modders/mappers a heads up. Hopefully this will save someone time in making other weapons/vehicles in search for finding a better balance in gameplay when these 3 vehicles are used.
That sounds great. Crossfire was a very underrated map.
If you make a nerfed version of the Mino though, it should be named something else.
Turbo K is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 03:38 PM   #13
Mr.Crow
Server Sponsor

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 463
Default
Reply With Quote


Goliath?
Mr.Crow is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 07:07 PM   #14
Danno'68
Some call me....Danno

 
Danno'68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 442
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo K View Post
That sounds great. Crossfire was a very underrated map.
If you make a nerfed version of the Mino though, it should be named something else.

Well, how bout this... Since most people call the Minotaur a Mino (pronounced like the little fish 'Minnow"), I'll call it the Guppy.
Danno'68 is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:44 PM   #15
GlueEater
Getting there...
 
GlueEater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 441
Default
Reply With Quote


The mino on DW was just as powerful but did not have the splash damage Omni's does. You actually had to hit the node or the enemy tank.
GlueEater is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 09:19 PM   #16
Danno'68
Some call me....Danno

 
Danno'68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 442
Default
Reply With Quote


I agree.

Although I have not looked at the code for the DW Minotaur, I wouldn't be surprised if the splash radius was either the same as a Goliath, or close to it.

I have no plans on reducing the splash on the Guppy to that level, but there should be some middle ground to try out.
Danno'68 is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 02:32 AM   #17
Wormbo
Wormlike
 
Wormbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 907
Default
Reply With Quote


Yup, splash damage clearly needs to be lowered. 2000UU radius is simply too large. That's the same radius as the Redeemer explosion's last stage. (The Redeemer explosion radii are: 250, 600, 950, 1300, 1650, 2000) The Redeemer spreads 250 damage on each stage, while the Mino deals out 1000, which even gets 50% added for vehicles and nodes. In other words, they do the same damage to vehicles and objectives at the center, but further out the Minotaur shell's explosion is much stronger.

I'd start by reducing the radius by 30-50% and also removing or lowering the the damage bonus. The Minotaur cannon is also supposed to add a tiny amount of spread to the three projectiles it fires per shot, but that is broken due to bad code. It looks like the WeaponFire code was adopted but the rotator calculation there was screwed up. I think instead of spreading all of the projectiles, the Mino instead became much more accurate than the Goliath. Adding that inaccuracy back in might also be interesting.
Wormbo is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:24 AM   #18
Terminator
Getting there...
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 796
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by GlueEater View Post
The mino on DW was just as powerful but did not have the splash damage Omni's does. You actually had to hit the node or the enemy tank.
I actually like the DW mino... Omni Mino is over powered and as you said, the splash damage is ridiculous.
Terminator is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:45 AM   #19
Mr.Crow
Server Sponsor

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 463
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by GlueEater View Post
The mino on DW was just as powerful but did not have the splash damage Omni's does. You actually had to hit the node or the enemy tank.
I disagree. It took two shots from DW mino to take out a node.
Mr.Crow is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 12:38 PM   #20
Mr.Crow
Server Sponsor

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 463
Default
Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormbo View Post
Yup, splash damage clearly needs to be lowered. 2000UU radius is simply too large. That's the same radius as the Redeemer explosion's last stage. (The Redeemer explosion radii are: 250, 600, 950, 1300, 1650, 2000) The Redeemer spreads 250 damage on each stage, while the Mino deals out 1000, which even gets 50% added for vehicles and nodes. In other words, they do the same damage to vehicles and objectives at the center, but further out the Minotaur shell's explosion is much stronger.

I'd start by reducing the radius by 30-50% and also removing or lowering the the damage bonus. The Minotaur cannon is also supposed to add a tiny amount of spread to the three projectiles it fires per shot, but that is broken due to bad code. It looks like the WeaponFire code was adopted but the rotator calculation there was screwed up. I think instead of spreading all of the projectiles, the Mino instead became much more accurate than the Goliath. Adding that inaccuracy back in might also be interesting.
Can't believe I just read that. Adding in inaccuracy...putting it IN the game. Why don't you just remove all reticles for all weapons then? What good does adding in inaccuracy do? If you ad in inaccuracy, you better add it to EVERYTHING! The fun of not being able to hit what you aim at is indescribable. How much fun is SSR or LG when accuracy is 50%?

Ping is a huge part of the problem too and other than Carpe, none of you mention it. You want to muddy the waters and dumb it down instead of fix what we have.

I think all the changes that are being brought up about reducing this and that is the wrong way to go about it. If you want to reduce the effectiveness of a particular vehicle or weapon, how about longer respawn times? The answer is not to reduce the power or effect it makes on the game, but the frequency. Make what we have actually work,{ AVRILS!} and the Raptor rockets, the plasma that the Levi and Kraken shoot cannot hit a flier unless the flier is moving toward the Kraken, or the flier is moving slow, but they have the ability to outrun just about everything, great for you low pingers.

The redeemers power has been reduced to half, now lets go after all the other powerful vehicles and make every weapon vanilla? Hell, make all the weapons have the same damage, so it doesn't matter if you are in the mino or in the lobreaker! WTF is a lobreaker? Nobody uses them hardly at all, but, if we make them have the same damage as everything else, fun for all.

Balancing things to me means if you make a Wasp and all of its power and speed, make a counter to it. The mino is balanced by the other mino and the goo gun, one player can kill that tank by himself, and the respawn time in most maps is about two minutes. The super weapons should remain super.
The powerful weapons should have a weakness. The mino is slow and requires a bit of skill to keep alive.
The redeemer is slow, and if you kill the shooter the bomb blows up too. Redeemers should be put back to full power with longer respawn times so it would only be available once or twice per round, not ten times per round.
The Wasp, Falcon .. their weakness is the person piloting them.
Mr.Crow is offline  
Reply


Go Back   Omnip)o(tentS Forums > SERVERS > Unreal Tournament > Onslaught

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
team balancing, post-poll Pi Onslaught 51 06-12-2017 01:53 PM
Player ranking based team balancing mod? McLovin Onslaught 23 12-29-2011 08:50 PM
Team Balancing Kyllian Off Topic 20 09-18-2007 09:56 PM
Interesting and balancing mutators... Toltrin Programming 9 04-13-2007 09:12 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:28 PM.