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#41 | |
3.14159265358979323846,,
![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,504
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![]() ...and there's the rest who are just jumping around like a bunch of half-drunk monkeys spamming and camping their little hearts out. ~Coyote |
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#42 |
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![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,447
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![]() I actually had a good time last night. It was so crazy you had to just go with it. You never knew when you might be team switched. Even the lead scorer could be switched right before the end of the round. It was kind of exciting but yeah, needs to change.
I'm sure this is going to be awesome once the Worm is done weaving it's magic. I'm not sure about this but is it possible it is kicking people from the match right after it plays the message "teams are uneven, balanced will be forced in 30 seconds"? I saw it flash that message 6 times in less than a second and I'm pretty sure it kicked 6 players when it did it (and more again later). It made the whole game kind of twitch for me. |
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#43 |
Mostly a target...
![]() ![]() Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 254
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![]() I don't mind the mid game switch, but the mid round one is a bit annoying, as someone mentioned, you work and tip the balance, only to find you playing against the yourself.
I did get switched mid round a few days ago while I was near the top and it was a bit confusing. All in all though, good change, too many one sided blow outs.... |
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#44 | |
For Victory - 1 & 2 Dria!
![]() Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: FL
Posts: 273
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#45 |
Getting there...
![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Southeastern United States
Posts: 176
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![]() 2fast after a Dria-hour-me-up crash, our team scored 2.. server said mulligan and took our 2 away. The other team scored 2 twice, even faster than our team, and it was allowed to stay. Talk about taking the wind out of our sails.
![]() This may be the push i needed to finally put aside this 11 year old game. It was fun before the changes.. i tried to be open minded on these changes, but to appease the few who pushed this change, may chase some like me away. Thanks for all the good times Omni, it was fun. Someone ping me if it goes back to the old ways. Thanks Carpe for maintaining the server all this time! just not a fan of the recent change.
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Give me ambiguity or give me something else |
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#46 | |
Getting there...
![]() ![]() Join Date: May 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 581
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It's a kick in the balls sure, but anytime something new is introduced it takes a bit to iron the bugs out and get it working the way everyone would like it. Take a break if you need to but don't quit the game man. Just because a new mod needs some tweaking and the server is hectic for a week or two isn't a reason to hang it up.
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"Conan! What is best in life?" ... "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." |
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#47 | |
Getting there...
![]() Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 869
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Take a break, come back and see how things pan out. Taking your marbles and going home is a mistake. Andrew |
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#48 |
Getting there...
![]() Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 333
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![]() Oh, I was under the impression the mutator was sane.... guess I should read more carefully.
Taking points away if they are scored under a certain threshold is like trying to shoot off a suspicious mole with a 12 gauge. Not to mention that as soon as people understand the threshold they will begin to exploit it.... In short: Use current map score + current map control for assigning new players to even player count teams. Do not use map score or control as a trigger for re-balancing teams. Do this periodically and only if AVG PPH disparity is above some threshold. I'd guess once every 3-5 minutes would be often enough to check. And of course if player count becomes uneven due to players leaving, it makes a best effort to balance the PPH/team. Also, once OT hits, I'd only re-balance on player count. Obviously, re-balance in between rounds. I'd also only re-balance 1 pair of players per instance. Even if the PPH differential can't be made up by a single swap of best for worst, I have to imagine the second iteration will be sufficient in 99.9% of the cases. Finally, quick losses happen even with well balanced teams. It is not the server's job to ensure matches last as long as possible, only that the teams were theoretically as even as they could be made. |
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#49 |
mostly harmless
![]() Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eddies in the space-time continuum
Posts: 12
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![]() So, just to lob a couple grenades into this (fairly tame) hornet's nest, is there any way to prevent a player from being team switched more than once per map? Because on an individual-player-basis, that is my (and quite a few other players') biggest annoyance. I realize that may not be possible with only a few players on the server, so maybe if there are 11 or more players implement a "switch each player only once" rule.
I'd also like to echo -Goose-'s idea about only balancing in OT based on player count, possibly the same way it used to be done, by most recent connection. You could alternatively balance player count in OT with only players who have been on for under a certain amount of time (say, 2 minutes). And in other "no one else really cares" news: not really seeing the need for the do-over if the first round on a map is short. Just balance at next round start, see if the losing team can dig it out. Underdog power! Appreciate all the work you guys are putting in, and totally understand that you are trying to keep the crowds happy and sticking around. I, for one, don't mind being a guinea pig while the kinks are worked out... it would be a cold day in hell for a tool like this to work right on the first try. |
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#50 |
Wormlike
![]() Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 907
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![]() Like I pointed out before: There seem to still be a few bugs in the selection logic for team switch candidates. There is supposed to be a delay of one minute (might make this configurable as well) for picking a player again for balancing. Also, the top 25% players in a team should generally be excluded, which apparently doesn't currently happen.
The balancing at round reset isn't just a simple balancing. In addition to making team sizes equal or only differ by one, players are swapped to achieve a minimum difference in the team sum of points-per-hour values of the players. In that regard, after a reset, your opponents are no longer "they" and your team nolonger are "us", but potentially two new teams. The usual restrictions like "top scorers" or "recently switched" also don't apply to this team shuffling. (I tend to avoid the term "balancing" for that feature.) I doubt you'd want that between regular rounds on top of "just balancing". So to summarize: It would be a very good idea, if the start of a new round happens with size-balanced teams, preferably not switching top-scorers. Mid-round balancing should happen less often and be more careful about which players are picked. Match reset with team shuffling is not necessarily practical for multi-round matches.
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#51 |
3.14159265358979323846,,
![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,504
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![]() I agree with the short-match restarts being weird and am changing the config to remove that. So the change now only encompasses shuffling teams at the beginning of any map and adding new players to the losing team. Please continue to comment, we'll get some middle ground established eventually.
Code:
ignore team preference: True Announce team change: True Connecting players balance teams: True Randomly start with sides swapped: True Shuffle teams from previous match: True Activation delay: 9999 Forced rebalance delay: 9999 Minimum desired round length (minutes): 0 Small team progress threshold: 0.5 Soft rebalance delay: 9999 Switch to winner progress limit: 0.7 Valuable player ranking %: 0.75
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![]() ...and there's the rest who are just jumping around like a bunch of half-drunk monkeys spamming and camping their little hearts out. ~Coyote |
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#52 | |
mostly harmless
![]() Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eddies in the space-time continuum
Posts: 12
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Cool. Thanks, Pi! And I was being imprecise with my language earlier, using "balance" to mean both having approx equal numbers on a team, and to even skill level. Drifted into the whole "assume you guys can read my mind" trap... Shuffling team roster between maps - nice, I like it. Did seem like we'd often get the same or similar teams map-to-map based on some kind of join-order sorcery. Only evening team skill on round reset, and balancing only numbers when necessary during the round seems like a fair way to do it. Realize you are working on the logic for moving players; I'd still like to advocate only switching players once per map if a certain server population threshold is reached, especially for top scorers. Being the ping-pong ball of team evening is no way to go through life, son. |
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#53 | |
Getting there...
![]() Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 796
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You often say, "Another blowout brought to you by Omni" And they make a change and you are the first one to bail. Yet when you are on the winning team and it is a blowout, you don't say a damn thing about the teams, only when YOU are on the losing team is when you say something. C'mon man... this is still in the early stages. |
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#54 |
Wormlike
![]() Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 907
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![]() New release, version 2 Alpha 8.
Changes since alpha 7:
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Wormbo's UT/UT2004/UT3 mods | YouTube channel | PlanetJailbreak | Unreal Wiki | Liandri Archives |
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#55 |
Mostly a target...
![]() ![]() Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 254
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![]() Patience Sarge, its work in progress.
Glad to see the changes and the progress and time that people are taking to make it. Repeated blowouts aren't all that fun. Better to have a closer balance. Now if you guys could just fix terminator's lightning gun so it ALWAYS misses... ![]() |
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#56 |
Wormlike
![]() Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 907
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![]() Even Match sources are now available on GitHub and I'll make use of the project's issue tracker to record all known bugs and requested improvements.
[edit] I'm looking into potential replacement algorithms for the team shuffling, in case it still stays crashy with larger player counts. To test replacement candidates, I need some test data for the PPH values, though. Can a server admin please send me the list? Starting with alpha 8 it's stored in EvenMatchPPH.ini, earlier versions stored it in UT2004.ini. In either case you are looking for the "EvenMatchRules" section.
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Wormbo's UT/UT2004/UT3 mods | YouTube channel | PlanetJailbreak | Unreal Wiki | Liandri Archives Last edited by Wormbo; 08-22-2015 at 02:21 PM.. |
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#57 |
Server Admin
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Matrix
Posts: 1,177
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![]() Feedback: the biggest problem is that players don't understand that they've been switched at the beginning of a match. They'll spend the whole 1st round voice chatting with the enemy. If I key "p" for Public and mention it over voice it seems they never hear me. That's been a problem for a long time. Maybe my Public chat is broken. Others seem to have trouble getting it through the head of the broken voice-chat player too. I can get it to work by logging in as admin and chatting normally, all players hear that, but I've got to remember to turn it off again or else Termy will learn that I've stolen the Kraken
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#58 |
Community Veteran
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,536
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![]() Is this mutator responsible for the new announcer voice and the green arrow at the top-center of the HUD?
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#59 |
Wormlike
![]() Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 907
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![]() Yes, Turbo K. The serverside "Display Round Progress Indicator" option controls whether that "green arrow" is displayed. It's not supposed to show any direction, or even anything you couldn't derive from the radar map and core health on the HUD already, but is there purely for testing purposes. It shows the mutator's view of the game state in terms of who's in the lead and by about how much.
hardspike: I guess I'll have to verify voice chat channels, then. I already had to create a workaround for player skins, which would not reflect the new team if balancing made the team change too late before respawn.
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#60 |
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![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,447
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![]() I suggest that this be setup to only attempt to balance teams at the beginning of a map. Are the matches now building up a database that can be used to balance? If so then once the database gets built up a little the balancer should start to give good results. I would be okay with the occasional one-sided match as long as they weren't as common as they are now, especially if it meant no mid-game/between rounds player switches.
Another suggestion to go along with only balancing at the beginning of a game is to have it not build teams until a few seconds before the match starts. Put everyone in a list like a FFA match then build teams and launch. A lot more work for Wormbo, I know, but I think it's closer to the ideal. This would also help with the v113 thing. |
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