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Old 03-13-2019, 06:01 PM   #81
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Yeah, I don't care for this idea for the same reason Binger already pointed out. I don't think much else is necessary to change if we can get the score limit to 3 with 1 point round wins.
Just brainstorming here but what about 20 minutes, normal OT and a score limit of 1. I think that'd be pretty easy to setup without having to use mutators etc.
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:35 PM   #82
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Just brainstorming here but what about 20 minutes, normal OT and a score limit of 1. I think that'd be pretty easy to setup without having to use mutators etc.
This is pretty similar to CEONSS with the 1 point win, except I think they have a 15 minute time with a very slow core drain, so overtime matches seem to last around 20 minutes.

Caveat to the 1 point win is it can be over in a hurry with unbalanced teams, which means bringing the mulligan back, which CEONSS also uses. The mulligan was not well received in general here, but is well accepted at CEONSS... maybe it's a European vs. American mentality? I dunno, but most players at OMNI seem to feel ripped off if their team quickly wins and they're not rewarded with the points.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:22 PM   #83
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This is pretty similar to CEONSS with the 1 point win, except I think they have a 15 minute time with a very slow core drain, so overtime matches seem to last around 20 minutes.

Caveat to the 1 point win is it can be over in a hurry with unbalanced teams, which means bringing the mulligan back, which CEONSS also uses. The mulligan was not well received in general here, but is well accepted at CEONSS... maybe it's a European vs. American mentality?
CEONSS got the timer set to 20 mins. We get matches that will last around 30 minutes at max.

Looking at some map stats for CEONSS, most matches seem to last between 18 and 22 minutes, though, so your gut feeling is right on the money. Those maps that regularly end too quickly need an edit of their node layout...

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I dunno, but most players at OMNI seem to feel ripped off if their team quickly wins and they're not rewarded with the points.
Interesting. For me, when the mulligan kicks in, it feels more like "oops, oh well...this never happened, let's try again with better teams". Maybe having only 1 goal score helps here? It feels like another chance to gain victory after an embarrassing defeat (or for the winning team, a victory that was too easy). Also, you get a couple more minutes on a map that would otherwise be over already. I can see how this would feel different on a server with more rounds.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:31 PM   #84
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Just wanted to say I had an interesting idea for this a while back....

1) Set score limit to 3
2) Set round time limit to 1 min
3) Reduce OT damage considerably

This way every round is worth 1 point, and node control is actually meaningful to the outcome of the game again (one of the banes of the current meta is node control is practically meaningless especially in typical stalemate maps like Dria).

Only a handful of maps would need to be fixed for this (those with the low health cores).

Just a thought...
Yeah, I don't care for this idea for the same reason Binger already pointed out. I don't think much else is necessary to change if we can get the score limit to 3 with 1 point round wins.
BUT GUYS, let's consider the idea of 5 minutes - halving the current round time of 10 minutes because it seems to be more balanced that way (without mulligan in effect). If it were 1 minute rounds, then we'd be forced into 1-point rounds on pretty much every map no matter how unbalanced the teams are, having to endure 3 rounds and play out the OT each round.

With 5 minutes, if the teams are rather unbalanced, then let the team win 2 points as deserved and move on with just one more round (if the teams are still really unbalanced). That's it. 5 minutes is about indicative enough of the imbalance.

If it takes more than 5 minutes for a win, then there's more of a fighting chance and we'd probably enjoy more short-and-sweet 5-min+OT 1-point rounds on more maps that we vote for. It's a no-brainer.

Guys, let's give it a try please? Binger? Mailbox? Enyo? If we tried mulligan, why not try 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes and see? Just for 2 weeks? What's the harm in that? It's not like as if we're gonna quit ONS right away altogether just because of that.
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Last edited by BoFox; 03-17-2019 at 09:44 PM..
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:47 PM   #85
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Well, how about bring back mulligan, but make it much shorter? I'd still like shorter rounds, though.


4-minute mulligan would be short enough that a lot less players feel like they wasted their time on a meaningless round, for 0 points ...


Let's just set the round time to 6 minutes then? We can keep the OT damage the same as it is now - so we won't be facing too many changes to the strategy. The overtime countdown rate seems to be pretty good as it is now.



Just 4-minute mulligan, with round time set to 6 minutes before OT kicks in... mulligan happening far less often than we used to get mulligans - instead, we'd be getting 2 points and not be bitching about mulligan most of the time. If the teams are more balanced, then we'd be getting more 1-point rounds - with more chances to regroup or work out different strategies, while the 5-round marathons would be far shorter in total.

Last edited by BoFox; 03-17-2019 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:13 AM   #86
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After playing a few days with the old rules.


I am liking the idea of a mulligan, but on a shorter time frame as BoFox suggested, this would at least give a reshuffle (maybe with Balancer?) a shot at evening up the teams.



I also like the idea of shorter rounds...the mulligan might alleviate that, but having to endure 3 rounds of ass beating because the teams aren't even, but not enough for 2pts (really more map dependent), is not fun.



I think shorter rounds with longer OT (as mentioned in the thread) making comebacks during OT possible. I realize the net here might be same amount of time overall, but OT puts the pressure on to do node control..even building and holding a node for 20seconds might be the difference. We've had some pretty good comebacks lately and they are at least as much fun and satisfying as a 2pt victory..maybe more so.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:12 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
After playing a few days with the old rules.

I am liking the idea of a mulligan, but on a shorter time frame as BoFox suggested, this would at least give a reshuffle (maybe with Balancer?) a shot at evening up the teams.

I also like the idea of shorter rounds...the mulligan might alleviate that, but having to endure 3 rounds of ass beating because the teams aren't even, but not enough for 2pts (really more map dependent), is not fun.

I think shorter rounds with longer OT (as mentioned in the thread) making comebacks during OT possible. I realize the net here might be same amount of time overall, but OT puts the pressure on to do node control..even building and holding a node for 20seconds might be the difference. We've had some pretty good comebacks lately and they are at least as much fun and satisfying as a 2pt victory..maybe more so.
Keep in mind the mulligan is pointless without a balancer to reshuffle teams. Does the balancer in fact balance teams any better than random teams? I don't really think so, but we only have anecdotal evidence since we really have no way to effectively track stats long term. And if there's no way to effectively track stats over a long period, then the balancer is more or less just shuffling based on previous round PPH. Maybe that's a little better than random, but no way to positively affirm that.

But how many times did you see this scenario with the mulligan/balancer: Round 1, red team slaughters blue team in under 5 minutes; teams reshuffle with almost the exact same players from red now on blue; now blue team slaughters red in about the same amount of time, 2 point win, match over. The real point is, with ONS you'll NEVER have balanced teams for a multitude of reasons short of players self-balancing, i.e. offering to switch to the losing team to help balance things. I know I've done that several times over the last couple weeks and have seen several other players, including Army and Sarge, offer to do so. Remember it's OK to switch to the losing team to help, just give a courtesy text of, "hey, should I switch to help them?" especially if an admin is present... sometimes the balance isn't really all that out of whack and a strong player switching can sometimes actually make things worse.

I don't mind experimenting with the round/OT clock to see if we can get more competitive end of round fights.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:22 PM   #88
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...
But how many times did you see this scenario with the mulligan/balancer: Round 1, red team slaughters blue team in under 5 minutes; teams reshuffle with almost the exact same players from red now on blue; now blue team slaughters red in about the same amount of time, 2 point win, match over.
The most frustrating for me was when teams were fairly balanced but one team managed to get a core destroy at 7:30 minutes, then mulligan/shuffle and a 2 minute victory. Just because a team gets a core destroy doesn't mean the teams are unbalanced. Where to draw the line is always going to be a matter of opinion which is why I opt for playing the cards you are dealt.

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The real point is, with ONS you'll NEVER have balanced teams for a multitude of reasons short of players self-balancing, i.e. offering to switch to the losing team to help balance things. I know I've done that several times over the last couple weeks and have seen several other players, including Army and Sarge, offer to do so. Remember it's OK to switch to the losing team to help, just give a courtesy text of, "hey, should I switch to help them?" especially if an admin is present... sometimes the balance isn't really all that out of whack and a strong player switching can sometimes actually make things worse.
A few years back, before the balancer, I was playing a lot of late night games and I would often switch teams to try to even things up. What would often happen is I would switch teams and then the team I switched to would win and I would feel bad for the team I was on. The whole point of switching is to give the other team a chance but if someone switches and then that team wins how is that fair? There were some matches with very few players where I would literally switch every round for five rounds. Some times I would even switch mid-round or go to spectate for a while. No one ever got mad at me for doing this but it just felt wrong even though I was trying to do the right thing. Eventually I gave up and decided to never switch teams again.

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I don't mind experimenting with the round/OT clock to see if we can get more competitive end of round fights.
The only argument I've heard against shorter rounds is that sometimes is takes almost 10 minutes of slow momentum to unlock and destroy a core. Well, sure. I can see it taking 20 minutes, or 30. Maybe there is a sweet spot but that is probably also a matter of opinion.

I think I would prefer shorter rounds and longer OT but then that might cause more OT rounds which means that shortening rounds could actually lead to longer matches on average, which is what I think most of us are wanting to avoid.

I encourage experimenting. It's really the only way to know how something will turn out. We just need to make sure experiments are followed up and reversed if needed. Mailbox has been good about this so as long as you and he are around and active to follow up on things then I would like to see different things being tried. Like BoFox said, "It's not like as if we're gonna quit ONS right away altogether just because of that."


Btw, I have really been trying to understand how to make a server mut so we can try that simple code change for DW style scoring but I just can't figure it out. Maybe Crusha can help. It seems like (but I'm prob wrong) simply extending Onslaught and changing that one number in that function would work but how to make a server mut out of it Idk...




//-----------------------------------------------------------
//
//-----------------------------------------------------------

class xONSOnslaughtGame extends ONSOnslaughtGame;


function MainCoreDestroyed(byte T)
{
local Controller C;
local PlayerController PC;
local int Score;

if (bOverTime)
Score = 1;
else
Score = 1;

if (T == 1)
{
BroadcastLocalizedMessage( class'ONSOnslaughtMessage', 0);
TeamScoreEvent(0, Score, "enemy_core_destroyed");
Teams[0].Score += Score;
Teams[0].NetUpdateTime = Level.TimeSeconds - 1;
CheckScore(PowerCores[FinalCore[1]].LastDamagedBy);
}
else
{
BroadcastLocalizedMessage( class'ONSOnslaughtMessage', 1);
TeamScoreEvent(1, Score, "enemy_core_destroyed");
Teams[1].Score += Score;
Teams[1].NetUpdateTime = Level.TimeSeconds - 1;
CheckScore(PowerCores[FinalCore[0]].LastDamagedBy);
}

//round has ended
for (C = Level.ControllerList; C != None; C = C.NextController)
{
PC = PlayerController(C);
if (PC != None)
{
PC.ClientSetBehindView(true);
PC.ClientSetViewTarget(PowerCores[FinalCore[T]]);
PC.SetViewTarget(PowerCores[FinalCore[T]]);
if (!bGameEnded)
PC.ClientRoundEnded();
}
if (!bGameEnded)
C.RoundHasEnded();
}

ResetCountDown = ResetTimeDelay;
}
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:53 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Keep in mind the mulligan is pointless without a balancer to reshuffle teams. Does the balancer in fact balance teams any better than random teams? I don't really think so, but we only have anecdotal evidence since we really have no way to effectively track stats long term. And if there's no way to effectively track stats over a long period, then the balancer is more or less just shuffling based on previous round PPH. Maybe that's a little better than random, but no way to positively affirm that.

But how many times did you see this scenario with the mulligan/balancer: Round 1, red team slaughters blue team in under 5 minutes; teams reshuffle with almost the exact same players from red now on blue; now blue team slaughters red in about the same amount of time, 2 point win, match over. The real point is, with ONS you'll NEVER have balanced teams for a multitude of reasons short of players self-balancing, i.e. offering to switch to the losing team to help balance things. I know I've done that several times over the last couple weeks and have seen several other players, including Army and Sarge, offer to do so. Remember it's OK to switch to the losing team to help, just give a courtesy text of, "hey, should I switch to help them?" especially if an admin is present... sometimes the balance isn't really all that out of whack and a strong player switching can sometimes actually make things worse.

I don't mind experimenting with the round/OT clock to see if we can get more competitive end of round fights.
No need for a balancer at all, then.. just let it be a random reshuffle with mulligan - just another random deck of cards to be dealt. Mulligan just reduces the likelihood of extreme bad/good luck with the randomness, but the randomness will still be there regardless. I don't even care about much shorter (and therefore more scarce) mulligans - I just don't want to play 1-hour marathon with my crappy Logitech G502 that is front-heavy and too damn narrow - if my wrists are tired from doing yard work, weight lifting, etc, then I can't aim for shit. It's pretty hopeless for me to fix my broken Logitech G9x, unless I can find another one to salvage the parts?? Oh well.
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Old 03-21-2019, 03:47 AM   #90
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Geez, I give up with this thread... I could be posting ideas forever with no fruition.. it's a waste of time for me, I guess.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:09 PM   #91
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Geez, I give up with this thread... I could be posting ideas forever with no fruition.. it's a waste of time for me, I guess.
Sorry Sir, I'll get right on that.

It's a free server for a 15 year old game. What do you expect? No one is going to jump because you say to. Just because no one responds to your many ideas doesn't mean they weren't read and considered. I understand your frustration but be patient and just be happy Enyo and Mailbox are playing an active roll in trying different things for the server.
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Old 03-21-2019, 04:19 PM   #92
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Sorry for expressing my frustration, lol.

Enyo said it all:

Quote:
I just don't want to play 1 hour+ marathon matches
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:11 PM   #93
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Sorry for expressing my frustration, lol.

Enyo said it all:


Same. Been playing less because at least before there was a chance of playing a different map. Now its minus, dria, nevermore and maybe redplanet. Then everyone quits.
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Old 03-29-2019, 01:27 PM   #94
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Just leave it the way it is. It was this way before and most of us learned to grin an bare uneven teams. It did make the times the teams would be even, that much more fun as a match could last a full hour like Dria or Minus
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Old 03-29-2019, 02:54 PM   #95
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But playing one-hour Dria matches and 3x MTMU matches for another 1-2 hours total each day just gets boring for me. It's the same rinse-and-repeat for so long, when there are so many other great maps that I'd love to play (Tyrant, Bitchslap, Spambox, Box_of_pwnage .. yeah some of those maps aren't on OMNI's roster but.. I also like Panalesh and Alpine, - not sure if I remember the name correctly - it's the map with the highest mountains of all, with some nodes on top of the ridges).



My pet hedgehog needs new toys every once in a while in her cage - or at least some reshuffling of accessories like exercise wheel, cardboard box and blankets or she starts exhibiting signs of dreariness. Her quality of life just declines even though she doesn't understand what is going on, lol. Hehe, hoho..





On the plus side, shorter rounds could also mean higher likelihood of playing 5 rounds on the maps that you love - just maybe 40-45 min max instead of well over an hour.



It's such a simple change to just cut the round times in half and try it out. Why we can't even give it a try is beyond me. Maybe I'd miss the opportunity to try it out myself, but don't you guys at least deserve a reshuffle of things in the daily routine and see if your cardboard box under the other side of the troll bridge would give you more joy and sunshine - while I take your word for it whether you guys like it or not.. ahahahaha!
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Old 03-29-2019, 03:27 PM   #96
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It's such a simple change to just cut the round times in half and try it out. Why we can't even give it a try is beyond me. Maybe I'd miss the opportunity to try it out myself, but don't you guys at least deserve a reshuffle of things in the daily routine and see if your cardboard box under the other side of the troll bridge would give you more joy and sunshine - while I take your word for it whether you guys like it or not.. ahahahaha!
Because you can't please everyone and every time we change something to make matches shorter, tons of players complain and the number of active players declines. And we can't just take every suggestion and change things on a whim because people just don't like change very much and they gripe about it. Cut the time in half and guaranteed people will whine about rounds being too short.

We are still looking at trying to change the regulation round scoring from 2 points down to 1 and making a match win best of 3 (2 pts to win). That would make a happy medium of keeping round lengths where they are and would prevent 1 hour Dria slogs.


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Old 03-29-2019, 04:19 PM   #97
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I think a good compromise might be 8 minute rounds with current OT core drain. So a little over 50 minutes on the long 5 round Dria matches (10 minutes less than current) and little over 30 minutes on uneven 3 round OT matches (6 minutes less than current). It's been done before and I don't remember many complaints. That would probably be more acceptable to the majority then DW scoring and it's an easy change until if/when DW scoring is figured out. I prefer longer OT but I'm okay with current drain to keep the overall time down.
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Old 03-29-2019, 09:42 PM   #98
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I think a good compromise might be 8 minute rounds with current OT core drain. So a little over 50 minutes on the long 5 round Dria matches (10 minutes less than current) and little over 30 minutes on uneven 3 round OT matches (6 minutes less than current). It's been done before and I don't remember many complaints. That would probably be more acceptable to the majority then DW scoring and it's an easy change until if/when DW scoring is figured out. I prefer longer OT but I'm okay with current drain to keep the overall time down.
Agreed Binger, a compromise of sorts might be the right move for now, at least until we can get some movement on the scoring change. Right now it seems the only two people with the ability to make such changes are Carpe and Mailbox. Iím sure it warrants a discussion among admins first, but either of you guys up for making such a change?
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:12 AM   #99
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I think I found a way to make regular wins and overtime both give only 1 point to the winning team, via a ServerActor. It's a bit hacky but should catch all the right places. Feel free to brainstorm around that. So best-of-three with a minimum of two matches would be possible now.
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Old 03-31-2019, 04:41 PM   #100
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What if you only had five seconds until overtime, which would right away punish teams that don't get nodes in the beginning?
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