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Old 05-09-2011, 03:33 PM   #1
Dr.Gonzo
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Default No spawn-killing of vehicles?


I noticed that you can't spawn-kill some or all of the vehicles on Dria-Stones. Gorz requested feedback on this, so here we go.

I'm still undecided. Spawn-killing the vehicles can be a cheep and unsportsmanlike strategy, but I've seen it used well and a legitimate one to help turn a loss into a win. It's only really annoying when some player is dedicating himself to this strat full-time, but still, it's so much a part of onslaught, that it seems wrong to stop it.

Is there some way the re-spawn time could be shortened for spawn-killed vehicle? Could the vehicles be made damageable, but not destroyable?

I don't know, what do the rest of y'all think?
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:58 PM   #2
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obviously not played for a while but from previous experience personally i feel that this is a good idea but only on important vehicles.

Agreed spawn killing of vehicles can be important to the win and loss of a game but when the it happens round on round to you it is the most annoying thing as you spawn some where and their is no vehicles to get in to go somewhere and when you do you die cheaply because of some little s*#@ getting a cheap kill on you!!
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:01 PM   #3
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Lemme explain the thoughts behind this, and let me assure ya'all that on this issue ya'all are going to be the ones to have the final say, not me. I did this specifically with the current maps being worked on to test the theory, and it works out as planned. Now... explanation...

I've heard over and over the idea that spawn smashing up vehicles is a legitimate tactic. The counter argument is that it isn't fun. The counter argument to that is that all is fair and would generals tell their army not to sabotage the opponents weapons etc. To this I say... donkey poo...

This isn't war, this is a game. We all shelled out cash for it at the shop or on steam or whatever. We did it with the knowledge that we would take said game home, install it, play it, and have a good time. Not be frustrated to buggeration by other people playing. Yes, it's a shooting game, but to compare it to life and death battlefield tactics taken by people who will have to send consolation letters home to wives along with bits of whatever they've managed to scrape together of what once was her husband is barmy.

A closer analogy is tennis. This game is far closer to tennis than it is to Iraq, and rather like tennis there are many ways to win. You can be a fast, agile player, dance around the court and return every ball struck across the net. You can use brute force, smash aces down the court and past your dumbfounded opponent before his mind even registers it speeding on its way. You can play clever, lob the ball up and over, then bring it in close to the net to catch your opponent off guard.

Now imagine, just for a second, that it was within the rules for you to sneak into your opponents dressing room and cut some of the strings from his racket.

And then you get out there and play, and win, because while you were hitting the ball your opponent was fiddling with his racket trying to tie the strings back up.

1. You haven't beat him at tennis, you've just been an ass.

2. You've completely removed any sense of fun the other player might have had from the match.

This wasn't ever a big problem back in the day, but one or two notable people do this compulsively during entire matches and make the game less fun and generally create a bad atmosphere. They aren't playing onslaught, they are pissing about.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorzakk View Post
A closer analogy is tennis. This game is far closer to tennis than it is to Iraq, and rather like tennis there are many ways to win. You can be a fast, agile player, dance around the court and return every ball struck across the net. You can use brute force, smash aces down the court and past your dumbfounded opponent before his mind even registers it speeding on its way. You can play clever, lob the ball up and over, then bring it in close to the net to catch your opponent off guard.

Now imagine, just for a second, that it was within the rules for you to sneak into your opponents dressing room and cut some of the strings from his racket.

And then you get out there and play, and win, because while you were hitting the ball your opponent was fiddling with his racket trying to tie the strings back up.

1. You haven't beat him at tennis, you've just been an ass.

2. You've completely removed any sense of fun the other player might have had from the match.

This wasn't ever a big problem back in the day, but one or two notable people do this compulsively during entire matches and make the game less fun and generally create a bad atmosphere. They aren't playing onslaught, they are pissing about.
Oh Gorzakk you do make me chuckle.
1) in tennis you cant do that you would be disqualified (if it was a tournament) they would most prrobably have a spare racket as well

However i totally agree that they are just being an arse! From time to time its a laugh to chase someone around your base to kill them you have to admit? as i said in my previous post it gets annoying and the reason why i came to play the game was not to be wound up by some ........! I came to have fun and enjoy myself as you say is this not what the game is about?
I hope that people stress their own personal opinions in this subject because it is important to make sure that it is resolved.

I forsee a problem though if you spawn protect the vehicles. what happens on a map like Minus or dria when one team is attacking the core and the vehicles that will change the game are not being destory as it will be being done "legally"! Is there any way that the vehicle spawn safety can be unlocked when that node/core is available to open play?

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Old 05-09-2011, 09:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post

I forsee a problem though if you spawn protect the vehicles. what happens on a map like Minus or dria when one team is attacking the core and the vehicles that will change the game are not being destory
Don't think thats an issue RodentHead, spawn protection will come off as soon as someone enters a vehicle and it's highly
unlikely those moments of protection would be enough for the doomed to dig themselves out a hole.

Then again, not a bad idea to have the spawn lock come off if the core is available. Don't know how that would be to
code though ?
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:49 PM   #6
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Here's why I'm for any kind of spawn protection, especially on any MTMU or Dria map:

I had to bow out of tonight's D_G_S for my mouse just plain DIED for no reason and I had to reboot. When I came back, I decided to follow one of the regular "killers" and this is why I am in support of any kind of modification that can be done:



I don't even know why I redacted and protected the name, for all of you probably took a guess as to who that was already. Anyways, Red lost 3-0 because this individual, and a few others, whose names I would never expect to spawnkill, were spending a lot of time doing that to Blue. I'm sure Red would have appreciated a little more "help" if you know what I mean.

So yeah, as Gorz said, it's too bad and so sad, but in the 2 years I've been here, I have not seen spawnkilling so BAD, so blatantly prevalent on the few maps I enjoy playing here recently. Big waste of time and resources for ANY team.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:12 AM   #7
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I think it's reasonable and acceptable to take out the Minotaur before he enters the battlefield. It's not reasonable or helpful to spend your entire time in the enemy's core waiting for the Mino to respawn. Nor is it great to f-up all the non-super vehicles or spawn kill enemies there. It is OK in my opinion to fight for a minute and a half building nodes, etc. then head to the enemy's core to stop the Mino.

The objective of the game is to take nodes and power cores. To do this you have to take out whatever gets in the way of that - infantry and vehicles.

Are we just supposed to avoid the Mino and work the side of the map he's not on?

How far away from the spawn point does the Mino have to be before you can shoot at it? Does he have to shoot at you before you can shoot back?

Maybe we just need to dual like they did a few hundred years ago. Let's say we run into an enemy on foot. Don't begin firing right away. Choose your weapons. Stand back to back. Walk and count 10 paces. Turn and fire.

It's not tennis. There's no mechanism in the game of tennis to win by damaging the opponents racket.

It's not war. War is real world life and death.

It *is* a game. Games are set up with a series of frameworks and players are free to determine their own method for achieving the objectives, so long as they follow the rules of the game and the rules of the game's host (i.e. Omni's server). There is nothing in the rules that forbid this type of play.

It *is* a game. We play it to have fun. When you have 32 individuals playing at one time it is likely that the definition of what's fun is not unanimously agreed upon by all 32 players.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:52 AM   #8
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I was on that match of Dria, and besides the main core camper there was like 2 other wannabes I saw at core also lol
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardspike View Post
It is OK in my opinion to fight for a minute and a half building nodes, etc. then head to the enemy's core to stop the Mino.
Agreed. Heading straight there, wrecking every single thing you see but not killing them so that the enemy needs to spend half their time charging them back up, then going "ha ha" over VOIP is the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardspike View Post
Are we just supposed to avoid the Mino and work the side of the map he's not on?

How far away from the spawn point does the Mino have to be before you can shoot at it? Does he have to shoot at you before you can shoot back?
You're supposed to locate it and take it down using skill and teamwork.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardspike View Post
Maybe we just need to dual like they did a few hundred years ago. Let's say we run into an enemy on foot. Don't begin firing right away. Choose your weapons. Stand back to back. Walk and count 10 paces. Turn and fire.

It's not tennis. There's no mechanism in the game of tennis to win by damaging the opponents racket.

It's not war. War is real world life and death.

It *is* a game. Games are set up with a series of frameworks and players are free to determine their own method for achieving the objectives, so long as they follow the rules of the game and the rules of the game's host (i.e. Omni's server). There is nothing in the rules that forbid this type of play.
The point is sportsmanship. Let me pick another sport which has something comparable. Football! The beautiful game, as it is known in England and soccer as it is known in the US of A. When the ball goes out of play the team opposing the last person who touched the ball gets to throw it back into play, in whatever direction they choose and to whomever they choose. If a player sees another player struggling, lying on the floor, limping badly, severely short of breath, they'll kick the ball deliberately out of play. This is allow the ref to suspend play and see whats up, possibly to call in the first aiders.

Now the person who kicked the ball out of play has given the ball to the opposition by virtue of being the one who kicked it out. Do you know what the opposition do? They throw it to the opposing team, even though it puts them at a disadvantage and even though there is nothing in the rules of football which say they can't keep the ball themselves and go try score with it. They don't do this because it just isn't the way the game is played and it isn't the way it is intended to be played.

Example. Blue team and red team are playing. Blue team has the ball, blue team sees other player injured. Blue team kicks ball out of area. Injured player is attended too. Red team has ball and prepares to resume play. Red team passes ball to blue team.

Yes, this happens. And no, there is no rule for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardspike View Post
It *is* a game. We play it to have fun. When you have 32 individuals playing at one time it is likely that the definition of what's fun is not unanimously agreed upon by all 32 players.
Again agreed. But some people find teamkilling fun. Some people find it halarious when they get into benders being used by their teammates then drive them off a cliff. Such people are making the game less pleasant for others, which is why such forms of fun are frowned upon. While this kind of thing is less assholish, it is still assholish for the much the same reasons (it removes the fun other people are having), and the "ha ha" over voip to simply frustrate and annoy the other players only serves to illustrate that the players in question are trolling not playing.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardspike View Post
It is OK in my opinion to fight for a minute and a half building nodes, etc. then head to the enemy's core to stop the Mino.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorzakk View Post
Agreed. Heading straight there, wrecking every single thing you see but not killing them so that the enemy needs to spend half their time charging them back up, then going "ha ha" over VOIP is the issue.
Well, then we agree. Guess it comes down to your intentions. If you're killing the Mino to keep it out of play and give your team a chance, then it's OK. If you're doing it just to be a dick, then you're just being a dick.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorzakk View Post
Agreed. Heading straight there, wrecking every single thing you see but not killing them so that the enemy needs to spend half their time charging them back up, then going "ha ha" over VOIP is the issue.
That's my BIGGEST issue. It's the equivalent of your average "troll" on a message board. Doing it just to be like one. A base full of smoking vehicles is NOT cool.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_X View Post
Here's why I'm for any kind of spawn protection, especially on any MTMU or Dria map:

I had to bow out of tonight's D_G_S for my mouse just plain DIED for no reason and I had to reboot. When I came back, I decided to follow one of the regular "killers" and this is why I am in support of any kind of modification that can be done:



I don't even know why I redacted and protected the name, for all of you probably took a guess as to who that was already. Anyways, Red lost 3-0 because this individual, and a few others, whose names I would never expect to spawnkill, were spending a lot of time doing that to Blue. I'm sure Red would have appreciated a little more "help" if you know what I mean.

So yeah, as Gorz said, it's too bad and so sad, but in the 2 years I've been here, I have not seen spawnkilling so BAD, so blatantly prevalent on the few maps I enjoy playing here recently. Big waste of time and resources for ANY team.
The server was full so I was spectating the very same player although I don't know why you bothered to redact the name, we all know who this is.
He would grab a manta from red base and make a beeline straight to blue base to damage vehicles there. The player did this multiple times in a row, even after Adolytsi got his number and smacked him down a few times at blue base. On one of those trips, someone jumped on top of his manta (hopefully) not knowing that he was being conscripted into the 'dick' club. Though the rider did stay on all the way to blue base.
This player does basically the same thing in Barracks, he will repeatedly take a manta to the upper level of the enemy's base, set the raptors and cicada on fire, and then hover over one of the transporter pads...now that's classy.
Though I wouldn't vote to tweak the game just to prevent his antics. This type of behavior is simply the price you pay for living in a free society (or playing a game with an open framework), like the occasional flag burner or nut with a gun.
I will damage an unoccupied enemy vehicle if it's a target of opportunity or in suppressing a node, like if I get stuck at an enemy node after it locks or I'm passing over a locked enemy node on my way to attack an unlocked node.
You do have to admire his singlemindedness though. He reminds me of Roger patiently waiting with a bio at the enemy core in MTMU. I generally won't laser focus on an opponent, unless it's my old nemesis Hardspike.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
Though I wouldn't vote to tweak the game just to prevent his antics. This type of behavior is simply the price you pay for living in a free society (or playing a game with an open framework), like the occasional flag burner or nut with a gun.
I will damage an unoccupied enemy vehicle if it's a target of opportunity or in suppressing a node, like if I get stuck at an enemy node after it locks or I'm passing over a locked enemy node on my way to attack an unlocked node.
You do have to admire his singlemindedness though. He reminds me of Roger patiently waiting with a bio at the enemy core in MTMU. I generally won't laser focus on an opponent, unless it's my old nemesis Hardspike.
My fishy compadre states it very well.

If I find my ride destroyed and at an enemy node, I will flame the vehicles there. If it is a node where I know players tend
to spawn I'll lay down spiders (if I have 'em) and wait for a bit. If I can distract one, two (or more sometimes) opponents
from the real battlefield, I may be able to help start tilting the table a bit, one way or the other. Sometimes I will even do
this intentionally IF I decide it will help my team.

I can remember dying about 15x in a row by spawning at a node that Rectimus was camping/whoring with a goliath. My
brain fogged over and my sole intent was to ram a rocket up his goliath ass.

ahh, the good ole' days.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:25 PM   #14
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Can't remember if I've played the map but I think it's a good idea.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:44 PM   #15
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Rather than delve into analogies, let's look at Onslaught itself:

i) Vehicles spawn in a locked state. This prevents stealing unless abandoned.
ii) Nodes that are locked are shielded from damage.

Makes perfect sense that locked vehicles could have been immune to opponent damage.

I, too, use the "burn" tactic on enemy vehicles when I get stuck at a locked node. But, simply, I wouldn't if they were immune while locked. Had this immunity been integral to Onslaught from day zero, nobody would have batted an eye. It fits the gametype.

edit: ...but I have to say, this feature on maps like Bitchslap or Tyrant would make the respective "garage vehicle" spawns a living nightmare.

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Old 05-13-2011, 06:43 PM   #16
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I am for the ability to spawn kill because anyone who does so won't survive long enough. The dedicated spawn killer will be a liability to his team more than an pain to the other. I see this over and over. If you don't want the mino to be spawn killed, just adapt to the situation as best as you can. This is a non issue. Don't fix what is not broken. One way of overcoming this is to increase the spawning time of a vehicle that was locked.
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:56 AM   #17
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100% back the damage protection of locked unused vehicles

Additionally it would be really cool if in the cores, there were sentinels (auto guns) on the walls
at each level, that would attack enemy campers IF (and only when) your core is not vunerable,
these should be disabled when it becomes vunerable

Both of these would force certain players to abandon ****ing about and go play onslaught !
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:25 AM   #18
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via the forums at HoC

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Goose-

In iCTF there used to be a mutator that punished flag shooting (every time you hit the flag you took some damage, usually 10 or 20 iirc), it seems like you could do the same thing with locked vehicles, though I'm not sure how feasible it really is.
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Old 05-14-2011, 12:42 PM   #19
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Well, I had not played for at least a month until last night. The core and spawn camping has gotten way worse. I saw 3 or 4 players regularly going straight to the core to camp the teleporters or the primary node to just spawn kill even though it was locked 2 nodes deep.
Over the length of the map, a third of the team had rotated in and out just because it wasn't fun to play anymore. Not the best way to keep a dying game alive.
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Old 05-14-2011, 03:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Well, I had not played for at least a month until last night. The core and spawn camping has gotten way worse. I saw 3 or 4 players regularly going straight to the core to camp the teleporters or the primary node to just spawn kill even though it was locked 2 nodes deep.
Over the length of the map, a third of the team had rotated in and out just because it wasn't fun to play anymore. Not the best way to keep a dying game alive.
You played on barracks (utstats didn't log your efforts). The left bottom and top right corner nodes always gets attacked no matter what. When a team loses in barracks (or any map where it is difficult to comeback), people always cruise around and stay away from being the victim. They try to be the aggressor. We were losing until the last round. Worst than spawn killing is team switching imo. Yo and Bo_Fox switched as if I wouldn't notice. If people are going to lose, lose with dignity. You never know when things will turn around. Plus, the trill of comeback is higher.

What's the difference between spawn killing and base raping anyways? (Ethically speaking) Everyone is guilty of base raping. I hear it over Voip all the time. "Don't hit the core. Let's rape their asses." It's a way to milk the score and to apply psychological distress to the opposing team. The motive of both actions are the same, the only difference between the two is that spawn killing is measurable. To say that one is wrong and the other isn't is not consistent.
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