3 Rounds Max

Originally Posted by Anonymous[Lolz]

What if you only had five seconds until overtime, which would right away punish teams that don't get nodes in the beginning?

So hard to interpret tone with text sometimes... assuming that was dripping with sarcasm?

No.

Originally Posted by Anonymous[Lolz]

What if you only had five seconds until overtime, which would right away punish teams that don't get nodes in the beginning?

In my opinion this makes for quite a stressful gameplay environment if your cores are under fire right from the start. It leaves little room for plays that don't involve going for the objective asap.

It also assumes that all maps are symmetric, while in theory there could be some asymmetric maps that may be balanced by means of how deasy/difficult certain nodes are for certain teams and by the resources they provide to the team, rather than just an equilibrium in held nodes.

Mechanics that allow nodes to be damaged without linking all the way up to them are an idea that has been tossed around in the past, though. It's something that should be left to the mapper, though.
An example would be the "Floodgate Node" in ONS/WAR-Floodgate, which is a node in the center of the map that is always vulnerable and which starts a 30-seconds countdown after capturing. If the node is held for the full duration, the enemy power core will get damaged.
Another example could be a system for "node lattice" maps like ONS-Maelstrom or ONS-Pandemonium, where it would be pretty much like overtime (the team that holds more nodes will cause the enemy core to get damaged in regular intervals), but built into the map. Those specific maps would really lend themselves to such a mechanic due to the amount of nodes and the perfect symmetry.

Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by Enyo

So hard to interpret tone with text sometimes... assuming that was dripping with sarcasm?

To be fair, I was kinda thinking of the same thing if we weren't able to get a mutator to do it. Lower the rounds to best of 3, then have a very short regulation with a much slower core drain in OT (like 15 min). That way whoever builds nodes the quickest and holds the most throughout wins, unless one side manages to get core hits.

Not sure how this would actually work in practice though. I can just imagine the bitching. "Overtime already? WTF? Fucking MAILBOX."

The instant OT thing was already suggested in this thread by Goose. I tired it offline. I only tried it a few times and didn't really put it to the test but what I found was that there would still be a point of no return and that it would drag on for a long time. This would probably be rare but it would really suck. There is no need for this if Crusha is able to make a DW style scoring system. It would have the same outcome but also be more flexible.

Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool

I think I found a way to make regular wins and overtime both give only 1 point to the winning team, via a ServerActor. It's a bit hacky but should catch all the right places. Feel free to brainstorm around that. So best-of-three with a minimum of two matches would be possible now.

Thank you so much, Crusha, for working on this. I hope you didn't put a lot of work into it. It might not go over well with the majority of players. I've played it many times on DW and I think it's a good compromise to lower the length of matches but if there is a lot of complaining it might not stay on the server. Don't spend a lot of time on it (unless you're having fun with it) but if you can make it work that would great and would be much appreciated. I would feel bad though if you went through a lot of trouble and then it didn't get used.

btw, Will it require a restart of the server? Afaik that is not possible right now.

Originally Posted by Binger

Thank you so much, Crusha, for working on this. I hope you didn't put a lot of work into it. It might not go over well with the majority of players. I've played it many times on DW and I think it's a good compromise to lower the length of matches but if there is a lot of complaining it might not stay on the server. Don't spend a lot of time on it (unless you're having fun with it) but if you can make it work that would great and would be much appreciated. I would feel bad though if you went through a lot of trouble and then it didn't get used.

btw, Will it require a restart of the server? Afaik that is not possible right now.

Don't worry, only took 3 hours (half of that was probably repeatedly building nodes across Torlan to test it) and was a nice exercise. I was just curious if it could be done.

I am not really sure about the process required to deploy a ServerActor. Never managed a server myself. You only need to add an entry to an INI file to add it, but I don't know if the game requires a server restart to notice the changes or if it just works as soon as the next map loads.
I'd also recommend an admin to keep watch when testing it. I only tested some "normal" match constellations, though I tried to take edge cases into account in the code. Like destroying the core before overtime but without a player ever dealing direct damage to it - which should only be doable via some other mods.

Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool

I am not really sure about the process required to deploy a ServerActor. Never managed a server myself.

I turn the UT2004 process off (not the machine that the server is running on), modify the .ini, then start the game process back up. If I understand Carpe's access right, you won't be able to implement this actor until OMNI moves.

Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool

I think I found a way to make regular wins and overtime both give only 1 point to the winning team, via a ServerActor. It's a bit hacky but should catch all the right places. Feel free to brainstorm around that. So best-of-three with a minimum of two matches would be possible now.

Awesome!!! In spite of the fact that I have not been keeping eagle-eyed tabs on things, I've been wondering how CEONSS could just end the map play whether it were 2 points or 1 point, regardless of mulligan. Sure, I did immensely enjoy 20 minutes of intense action on generally smaller maps that involved more DM-style gameplay or just plain spamming as well. It was usually (the majority of times) just 1 round (in addition to the occasional mulligan), and then we'd take a quite long break voting for the next map.


I would love for somewhere in between CEONSS and OMNI. Just not too much 1+-hour Dria or MTMU marathons nearly everyday. ***IF*** CEONSS could just end the map play after just 1 point rather than 2 points, then couldn't we just do the same here?



Let it just be two 1-point rounds or 1 2-point round and then the map ends (regardless of mulligan)?



Is it also possible to adhere specific mulligan times according to each individual map? Say, a large map with lots of nodes would have longer mulligan times than a smaller map with fewer nodes? I'm all for shorter mulligan times nonetheless. If not then let's just make mulligan 3-4 minutes (much more of a rarity), and the round time 6 minutes. With only about 2 minutes in between mulligan and the 2-point round score deadline, getting a 2-pointer also becomes much more of a rarity. Getting 1-point rounds would be more commonplace, with a brief breather of 5 seconds in between the round reset - and an opportunity to regroup, reconsider a different strategy, etc.



Caveat emptor, making the OT core drain rate longer than the current rate could alter the teamplay, since it would be occurring more often in the first place - encouraging players to take a far more defensive approach rather than offensive--so I'm not in favor of making too many changes at once.



Sorry I haven't been playing lately - my hands, arms and wrists are shot once again from hauling old railroad tracks for landscaping - the muscles ache from just typing.

Originally Posted by BoFox

Awesome!!! In spite of the fact that I have not been keeping eagle-eyed tabs on things, I've been wondering how CEONSS could just end the map play whether it were 2 points or 1 point, regardless of mulligan.

I would love for somewhere in between CEONSS and OMNI. Just not too much 1+-hour Dria or MTMU marathons nearly everyday. ***IF*** CEONSS could just end the map play after just 1 point rather than 2 points, then couldn't we just do the same here?

CEONSS matches are one point wins. There’s a setting for how many points for a match win, with 1,2 or 3 as the options. They have theirs set to 1. If a match goes too fast, then the mulligan/reshuffle kicks in and you have a new match with no recorded score (still 1 point to win). Not sure what their mulligan time limit is.

Originally Posted by BoFox

Let it just be two 1-point rounds or 1 2-point round and then the map ends (regardless of mulligan)?

One point regulation wins require a mutator like Crusha is working on. The mulligan concept was generally disliked by the OMNI community, not so much for the reset time, but because you get “robbed” of a 2 point win. We are prob not going to entertain reinstating the mulligan any time soon.

Originally Posted by BoFox

Is it also possible to adhere specific mulligan times according to each individual map? Say, a large map with lots of nodes would have longer mulligan times than a smaller map with fewer nodes? I'm all for shorter mulligan times nonetheless. If not then let's just make mulligan 3-4 minutes (much more of a rarity), and the round time 6 minutes. With only about 2 minutes in between mulligan and the 2-point round score deadline, getting a 2-pointer also becomes much more of a rarity. Getting 1-point rounds would be more commonplace, with a brief breather of 5 seconds in between the round reset - and an opportunity to regroup, reconsider a different strategy, etc.

Prob not able to set different mulligan times for specific maps without some major scripting... and see previous comment about mulligan not coming back any time soon, not even considered really.

Originally Posted by BoFox

Caveat emptor, making the OT core drain rate longer than the current rate could alter the teamplay, since it would be occurring more often in the first place - encouraging players to take a far more defensive approach rather than offensive

I would be in favor of increasing the core drain, and it’s being discussed. Not sure that would necessarily mean teams would become defensive in overtime, and not sure that really makes sense. Strong offensive teams overwhelmingly win in onslaught simply because you have unlimited respawns. Defenses eventually get penetrated and overcome by nonstop attackers.

Thanks Enyo for a wholehearted post. Sorry my previous post was a brain fart - I hope you didn't puke from the brain smell.

CEONSS matches are one point wins. There’s a setting for how many points for a match win, with 1,2 or 3 as the options. They have theirs set to 1. If a match goes too fast, then the mulligan/reshuffle kicks in and you have a new match with no recorded score (still 1 point to win). Not sure what their mulligan time limit is.

I forgot to say that I THINK I have seen CEONSS do another round after getting 1 point if the first round was short enough - not so short that it was mulligan (0 points). It seemed to have happened a few times, IIRC... Because one of the teams would have a score of 1 and then keep on playing another round??



If I'm wrong then it's time for me to stop embarrassing myself and start putting on my mental glasses to look at things more clearly that I've been overlooking.


At any rate, I found a post from a while ago over at CEONSS:

* (Bonus) Anti-marathon ONS scoring feature: using the quick round feature, EvenMatch has managed to ensure servers can get at least one balanced round out of any map, sometimes that being preceded by a shorter (max 7mins on CEONSS, I believe) stacked first round. For communities that want to get more than one balanced match out of their maps, however, the stock game only offers the option of raising GoalScore to 3 and playing to reach that via RT or OT round wins, with all the associated gameplay baggage that brings along, namely the worst case scenario transforming from a 7-10min, 1-round drive-by to that of an exhausting 65-75min, 5-round marathon. The only way to break out of this bind is to bend the default (ONSOnslaughtGame) rules, say, by making all round victories add only 1 point to teams' score regardless of the time it took to get there, and then bringing GoalScore down to 2. While this sacrifices some gameplay nuance (renders winning early meaningless), this affords a minimum of 2 rounds in a map and a maximum of 3, bringing down the worst case scenario of being trapped in a map from 65-75mins to a much more tolerable ~45min ceiling.
Since a mod that allows just that to work has been employed on the DW server for eons, namely DWOnslaught.u (Nov. 2018 edit: after reviewing its code, it turns out this isn't the mod responsible for customizing the RT/OT scoring rule; a DW serveractor not available to clients is the likelier factor), and EvenMatch already has functionality that monitors round completion time as well as can potentially alter/reset teams' scores if needed, embedding the former's extra bits into the latter could be a way to expand EM's value to the UT/ONS community without having to design any new tool or resource from the ground up. While I don't recall what impact running the DWOnslaught such a mutator might have on a server's whitelist status, embedding it in EM would certainly help such a server stay there if nothing more exotic was also in use.
Lastly, the aforementioned gameplay nuance loss problem arising from the apparent equalization between regulation time and overtime wins under DWOns rules is something that's been gnawing at me for a good long time. Out of several ways I've considered possible to restore some difference between the two while still giving only 1 point, the one I now believe to be the best, in terms of complexity to develop vs. tactical depth and non-bias, has to do with reducing the core health of any team that lost an RT round at the start of all remaining rounds by a non-insignificant amount ranging between 10% and 15% (or 500 to 650-ish hp out of a 4,500 max). Adding this last bit just as food for thought here.


Before anyone asks, I'm well aware of Wormbo's last statements regarding the probability of him returning and doing further work on this or any other UT project, but since the odds of me trying to do this myself and ahead of all the other ONS stuff I've already got on my plate (my own, comparatively diminished, UScript fluency notwithstanding) are about as good, I figured I might as well post this in case it serves as inspiration for anyone else passing through with enough experience and coding time on their hands to take this up for everyone's benefit - Crusha maybe, who knows?

Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool

I think I found a way to make regular wins and overtime both give only 1 point to the winning team, via a ServerActor. It's a bit hacky but should catch all the right places. Feel free to brainstorm around that. So best-of-three with a minimum of two matches would be possible now.

This is perfect - the holy grail, the solution to all things. So it would be just 2 rounds for every map. In that case, we could even increase the round time to 15 minutes, or prolong the core OT drain rate - something that Dimshade would love, advancing and then defending critical nodes with all of his might!

Originally Posted by BoFox

I forgot to say that I THINK I have seen CEONSS do another round after getting 1 point if the first round was short enough - not so short that it was mulligan (0 points). It seemed to have happened a few times, IIRC... Because one of the teams would have a score of 1 and then keep on playing another round??

You know, you guys can just ask instead of speculating. CEONSS' mulligan is set to 7 minutes. The goal score is at 1 point, as Enyo said, so it does not matter if your team earns 1 or 2 points. A second round only happens on CEONSS if the mulligan kicks in. Also, the time limit for rounds is 20 minutes, with the core drain set to 20. I think this should cover it all.

Originally Posted by EmanReleipS

You know, you guys can just ask instead of speculating.

OMFG YES!

I deal with this every day.

I've learned to qualify my queries to:

1. If they actually know the answer.
or
2. They are making up an answer up based on their experience.

I'm all for expounding and hypothesizing, but if you don't know the answer please tell me so I can go find someone else that does. And they do because they worked on it.

Originally Posted by EmanReleipS

You know, you guys can just ask instead of speculating. CEONSS' mulligan is set to 7 minutes. The goal score is at 1 point, as Enyo said, so it does not matter if your team earns 1 or 2 points. A second round only happens on CEONSS if the mulligan kicks in. Also, the time limit for rounds is 20 minutes, with the core drain set to 20. I think this should cover it all.

That's just my way of "asking". Perhaps it was from before when mulligan was being used. Going without playing for months at a time can be confusing for me. That was my brain fart for you guys.

Originally Posted by BoFox

That's just my way of "asking".

Well, it certainly works.

CEONSS has had the mulligan for several years now, and it was increased from 5 to 7 mins back in 2016. (Hmm...seems we temporarily set the goal score to 2 back then as well as a test. )

But no worries, mate! If I wasn't so involved with the game and server, I don't think I would ever notice these things.