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Old 08-11-2015, 03:21 PM   #1
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Fellow players here is a conversation Wormbo and I have been having and we now want to get the views of everyone!

SMOKER:
Question?
Is there a way to make the server assign a new player based on node count?? Like if Red has 70% of the nodes the new player is assigned to Blue and vice versa?? I have no idea if there is a way for the server to see that upon new player arrival??

Wormbo:
The server sees everything and has the authority to assign teams. However, there's currently no connection between the two concepts.

BTW: I recommend always starting threads about things like this.

SMOKER:
I agree Sir on the Forum, I was really wondering as you said there is no connection between the two concepts, but can it be done? is there a way to connect both concepts. I do not want to start a Forum discussion on something that cannot be done at all or would be a huge amount of time to create. So I guess the question is, Is this possible to do? and is it easy to do or is it so complicated it would take hours to code??

Wormbo:
If something takes only hours to code, it counts as "easy". And considering I already created "team progress" logic for Even Match, this request may very well fall in that category.[/QUOTE]

SO YOUR THOUGHTS PLAYERS????
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:39 PM   #2
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I'll add this mutater within 48 hours (i hope). I'd do it now but the server is full. We'll give it a shot and see what people think
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:57 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I'll add this mutater within 48 hours (i hope). I'd do it now but the server is full. We'll give it a shot and see what people think
Sweet! hope it works
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:23 AM   #4
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My Thanks Pi!!
Hopefully this will help even the matches and make the server more balanced.
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Old 08-12-2015, 12:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMOKER View Post
My Thanks Pi!!
Hopefully this will help even the matches and make the server more balanced.
Still wont matter when I join. I am OP as hell and my teams win 100% of the time, right guys?
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:53 PM   #6
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mutator installed. settings are as follows:

Code:
ignore team preference: True
Announce team change: True 
Connecting players balance teams: True
Randomly start with sides swapped: True
Shuffle teams from previous match: True
Activation delay: 10
Forced rebalance delay: 30
Minimum desired round length (minutes): 10
Small team progress threshold: 0.5
Soft rebalance delay: 10
Switch to winner progress limit: 0.7
Valuable player ranking %: 0.75
Please comment on what is working or what should be tweaked
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:08 AM   #7
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So how do we activate this? Is this the new "teams" command in general text chat? Does it happen automatically?

The reason I ask: I played a few maps last night and during one of those maps (MasterBath)... my team was being completely spanked. Lost by 2pts somewhat quickly in the first round. Next round was a spanking as well. I would have loved to have balanced the teams after the first round.
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Old 08-18-2015, 07:59 AM   #8
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Cool, feedback. Good. Sorry, I wasn't around last night to retool stuff 'live' but that's how it goes I guess. It sounds like the mid-game shuffling is an issue and we should turn it off. The download % going awry is my fault, I didn't upload the package to the redirect (and still haven't) so the % should go past 100 every time it downloads (so, once per person). I'm sure Carpe will fix that eventually since I've misplaced my redirect credentials

Code:
ignore team preference: True
Announce team change: True 
Connecting players balance teams: True
Randomly start with sides swapped: True
Shuffle teams from previous match: True
Activation delay: 9999
Forced rebalance delay: 9999
Minimum desired round length (minutes): 7
Small team progress threshold: 0.5
Soft rebalance delay: 9999
Switch to winner progress limit: 0.7
Valuable player ranking %: 0.75
I think these changes will disable mid-game rebalancing but keep pre-game shuffling & auto-restart short matches.

Wormbo, this look correct?

anyone else, 7 minute 'fast match' setting sound reasonable?
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Old 08-18-2015, 10:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
anyone else, 7 minute 'fast match' setting sound reasonable?
Is there a way to exclude certain maps from the fast match setting? As it stands, we almost always have to play an extra round of any F&F map. Not that it's a huge issue, since it's pretty fast anyway. Just tossing it out there.
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Old 08-18-2015, 01:04 PM   #10
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Eh.... even if it is switching the top scorer I have to say so what. This type of team balancing takes place all the time in the far more competitive gametype of Freon/TAM. Sounds like more of people problem than a mutator problem to me.

Quote:
If every map goes 5 rounds that's not a good thing.
Especially since there is a timer on how long a game can last before the voice exploit crashes the server... Ideally, pre-ot wins would only grant 1 point and we could reduce the win score to 2. That would ensure at least 2 rounds but a maximum of 3, which should also prevent server crashes since the maps should finish before the exploit comes to fruition.
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Old 08-18-2015, 02:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Goose- View Post
Especially since there is a timer on how long a game can last before the voice exploit crashes the server... Ideally, pre-ot wins would only grant 1 point and we could reduce the win score to 2. That would ensure at least 2 rounds but a maximum of 3, which should also prevent server crashes since the maps should finish before the exploit comes to fruition.
I certainly like that idea, I'm not sure how you set the per-overtime point value of a match but it's gotta be possible. This would be a 'big' change for people so we'd need some buyin from the public before doing anything. Comments?
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Old 08-19-2015, 08:08 AM   #12
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I agree with the short-match restarts being weird and am changing the config to remove that. So the change now only encompasses shuffling teams at the beginning of any map and adding new players to the losing team. Please continue to comment, we'll get some middle ground established eventually.

Code:
ignore team preference: True
Announce team change: True 
Connecting players balance teams: True
Randomly start with sides swapped: True
Shuffle teams from previous match: True
Activation delay: 9999
Forced rebalance delay: 9999
Minimum desired round length (minutes): 0
Small team progress threshold: 0.5
Soft rebalance delay: 9999
Switch to winner progress limit: 0.7
Valuable player ranking %: 0.75
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Old 08-19-2015, 12:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I agree with the short-match restarts being weird and am changing the config to remove that. So the change now only encompasses shuffling teams at the beginning of any map and adding new players to the losing team. Please continue to comment, we'll get some middle ground established eventually.

Cool. Thanks, Pi!

And I was being imprecise with my language earlier, using "balance" to mean both having approx equal numbers on a team, and to even skill level. Drifted into the whole "assume you guys can read my mind" trap...

Shuffling team roster between maps - nice, I like it. Did seem like we'd often get the same or similar teams map-to-map based on some kind of join-order sorcery.

Only evening team skill on round reset, and balancing only numbers when necessary during the round seems like a fair way to do it. Realize you are working on the logic for moving players; I'd still like to advocate only switching players once per map if a certain server population threshold is reached, especially for top scorers.

Being the ping-pong ball of team evening is no way to go through life, son.
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:35 PM   #14
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Rebalancing only happens on actual mismatch of player counts, or if the first round was really short (10mins according to what Pi posted). I guess you didn't get spanked hard enough.

Anyway, the results from that match should have affected the initial player distribution among teams for the next match. But then again, keep in mind that mutator was designed for a server with a single round per match.
Also it will only shuffle teams right when the match starts (or restarts after a short round), so any late-comers will essentially join teams in the order they arrive.
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:54 PM   #15
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OK I see what you are saying Wormbo but that isnt exactly what I was thinking when this thread was started, here is a scenario we just played.

Each team had 8 players (real players not bots)
Red owned all the nodes except primaries of Blue
A new player joined and was immediately placed on Red as usual as always has happened on the OMNI server

The new mod or whatever you call it should have sent the new incoming player to Blue since red owned over 60% of map.

This should make games more even and will stop the spectating trolls that jump into the Winning team since you auto into loosing team.
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Old 08-17-2015, 07:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormbo View Post
Rebalancing only happens on actual mismatch of player counts, or if the first round was really short (10mins according to what Pi posted). I guess you didn't get spanked hard enough.
1st round try really hard: spend whole time as primary wack-a-mole and do it long enough to appear to the script as 'balanced'. 2nd round, give up because the teams were obv. unbalanced.

I think some sort of % of nodes held calculation might help? Still not sure how to quantify being pinned down. Maybe the number of sequential primary node locks by the opposing in a short period of time? Don't know if that is possible. It's definitely a challenge for Masterbath, which has very few nodes but many primary locks that happen during the game. In a good game, the number of primary locks by the opposing team is balanced or at least 4:1?, maybe 5:1? (I've seen rallies before.)

Well at least I know to throw in the towel before 10mins is up. Non-stop primary wack-a-mole? --> give up in 9.5 minutes.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:16 AM   #17
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I'm just pointing out that a MTMU-Randomizer match lasted a little over 5-6 minutes last night from start to finish. No re-shuffling or re-balancing of any sort occurred between rounds.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:17 AM   #18
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I'm just pointing out that a MTMU-Randomizer match last night lasted a little over 5-6 minutes from start to finish. No re-shuffling or re-balancing of any sort occurred between rounds.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:56 AM   #19
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I never claimed it would do that particular thing (I really can't remember whether it should do that), only that it should be easy to do as I did something similar before. "Something similar" being "detect, which team is in the lead in an Onslaught round". In fact, I think the mutator doesn't do much about a difference in team size of only one player.

Consider the following scenario: Red leads 4 to 2 nodes, but also has 1 player more than blue. Should one of them switch to blue to make the game even again? I don't think so for the team sizes you guys usually play at. Okay, if both teams have the same size, a joining player should be assigned to blue, but like I said, the mutator probably doesn't do that yet.
What it does is disabling the team preference (players can pick their favorite team in the settings) either always (that's currently configured) or when rebalancing might be a good thing because of different team sizes. In either case it sets team preference to "none", allowing the game to pick the team. (That's probably worth changing.)

[edit]
I just created a HUD indicator for the "team progress" value used by the balancing logic and I think it doesn't always show something you'd agree with when looking at the map and/or core health. I guess I'll have to revise or rewrite the progress calculation.

Last edited by Wormbo; 08-15-2015 at 05:42 AM..
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Old 08-16-2015, 03:40 AM   #20
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And the bugs keep popping up. I noticed that you continue to live when being forcefully moved to a different team. If you're in a vehicle, that won't change teams with you until you exit and enter again. Interesting effect, but quite unintuitive. Next version will explicitly kill players that get team-switched while still alive. (Even Match will try to avoid having to switch live players, but sometimes it's just necessary.)

Also I rewrote the team progress assessment function. The logic seemed to make sense back when I wrote it, but the team progress indicator revealed how far off it often was. Core health sometimes hat too few or too much influence, even if it didn't matter at all. Clearly, outside overtime, your core's health won't matter if the enemy is still several hops away from your core and your team is right at theirs.

[edit]
I did a code compare to see, how far my code already differs from what's running on the Omni server.

Features to come:
  • Ignore bots for calculating team balance. When enabled, bots will not be included in the team size for balancing checks. This includes the "valuable player" consideration.
  • Explicitly force connecting players to join the smaller team. Basically I tweaked, how the options "connecting players balance teams" and "always ignore team preference" work together. If players are supposed to balance teams, the ignore team preference option controls whether balancing should always be applied or just when it is needed.
  • Forced switching of live players involved their death now, as you'd expect.
  • Team progress calculation was completely rewritten. It is now based on a combination of core health, scaled by how far the enemy is from the core, and total owned nodes and node health, scaled by how far you are from the core, and takes into account whether any core is vulnerable or whether it's overtime.
  • A team progress indicator, mainly to verify the above team progress calculation. If you see this far off from what you thing it should be, please post a screenshot.
  • A player is now also considered a key player that shouldn't be switched if he is driving a vehicle with a passenger.
Download will follow later today and feedback is very welcome.

Last edited by Wormbo; 08-16-2015 at 04:37 AM..
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