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Old 01-02-2019, 09:32 PM   #1
<LBG>LooseCannon
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Default Not a fan of this mulligan thing.
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Playing with this mid-game unbalancing nonsense has made playing about as fun as a toothache. Every night I have played in the last few weeks, 4 out of every 5 games follow the same pattern:

Match begins
Red has the majority of the strong players.
Red wins "too quickly"
Server invalidates the round by erasing the score and moves enough strong players to blue to throw the balance in the opposite direction.
Blue sweeps the second round as fast or faster than red did previously.
Blue gets two points and wins the game.

I'm not the best player (hell, I suck. I admit it,) but at least it was fun. Now, you have to wonder if you should put any real effort in, because if the server deems that effort too successful, you're going to get robbed of the victory so what's the point? After the second or third time in a row that you LOSE 2-0 because you WON too fast, there's no real desire left to stay and play anymore.

Seriously. Please turn that off.
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Old 01-03-2019, 12:17 PM   #2
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I love the new scoring system but I am not a fan of the Mulligan either. I think the Mulligan time should be decreased from its current time to like 4 minutes. Or if a team wins too fast they get a 1pt win instead of the no score + restart. Make it 1 pt + restart. Although I have seen stronger players shuffled to the weaker team, I dont see it all the time.

In fact Ive been on a weaker team after a shuffle and smoked the would be better team also. Most winning teams have the better bottom players.

I just feel the mulligan time is too big of a window and would like to make smaller changes to experiment before nixing the whole concept. Shorter mulligan window and/or 1pt win with restart and lets see how that plays out.
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Or if a team wins too fast they get a 1pt win instead

This ^ not sure if its possible, but I would like to see that.



Lately it seems like the above scenario happens often, a mulligan then restart and I've seen it either restart and the teams essentially unbalanced for whatever reason. A couple times I could have sworn it moved 1 player.



Improvements I'd like to see, as mentioned above.



1pt for mulligan win



Better balancing on the Mulligan -- how does it do that now? Maybe something simpler might work...


mulligan time reduced, on a 10 minute map, I think 8 minutes is crazy, 5 or 6 would be better. Seen several matches go back and forth and one good play "breaks" the other team and boom reset.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
Lately it seems like the above scenario happens often, a mulligan then restart and I've seen it either restart and the teams essentially unbalanced for whatever reason. A couple times I could have sworn it moved 1 player...

Better balancing on the Mulligan -- how does it do that now? Maybe something simpler might work...
I've seen that too Pooty where only one or two players get switched not making much difference. It really depends on how the balancer algorithm is built, and exactly how it works I really don't know. IIRC from old posts about when the balancer went into effect, it's using some limited cache of stored player PPH as the basic metric of skill level. I don't even know where it pulls that from or if that's even correct, or how long of a PPH history is kept if it is at all.

If that is what it's doing, generally speaking, I could see why so few players are shuffled if their mulligan round PPH isn't all that much different from their stored average. I don't know at all whether or not it takes into account long term PPH when reshuffling or if it only considers the mulligan round.

Seems like the better way to rebalance after the mulligan would be to consider player PPH from ONLY the mulligan round to spread the talent out as evenly as possible for that particular map.
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:15 PM   #5
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2 more cents about the balancer in general and the whole mulligan concept...

Many of us pushed for both of those based on a desire to try and bring some type of balance to team makeup. The balancer and mulligan always seems to do a pretty good job on the CEONSS server and they've been referenced a lot as an example to follow. I've played there quite a bit and noticed some significant differences in their server makeup outside of clock management and core drain times (which are both significantly longer than OMNI's), and they only have 1 pt matches.

The biggest differences I see at CEONSS that I think makes their balancer/mulligan setup work better are:
1) General play style of almost everyone there is far less aggressive (in terms of nodes) than that of many OMNI players. A lot of their players are content running around death-matching and not so aggressively attacking/building nodes;
2) A large portion of their map rotation is heavy death-match style maps with very few vehicles, which goes along with the general community's style of play.

I've noticed times when there's a large number of OMNI players at CEONSS on one team during a death-match-type map, that team gets clobbered because of the consistently high pings at 120+ for all the OMNI players. BUT, when a lot of OMNI players are on the same team on a tank laden CEONNS map, we tend to overrun them despite the high pings. I dunno, just some general observations that I think all factor into how well all this balancer/mulligan stuff actually works. A lot of variables at play.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:16 PM   #6
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Hey LooseCannon,

The Mulligan was initially set to a very high value in part because of the 2-point win existing. The mulligan served as a preventative means from a match ending in a couple of minutes. I'm all for a 1-point regulation win, but the 2-point regulation, 1-point overtime system is oddly hardcoded into the game, and would require a mutator to change. It should be a simple enough task, if any of us left knew UnrealScript. I recall saying that a month of two ago, so maybe I should get to that.

The other thing is that I don't know how the server has EvenMatch configured, but looking at the code:

https://github.com/TheRealWormbo/Eve...venMatchPPH.uc

It seems like it just trusts what the server says what your PPH is for the round. I know that the time includes time spent spectating, rather than only time playing. I don't know how easy that would be to change, but is likely making the balancer not work as it should.

Thanks for bringing it to the forums. I haven't been on much lately, but I'm not out of it yet!
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
The biggest differences I see at CEONSS that I think makes their balancer/mulligan setup work better are:
1) General play style of almost everyone there is far less aggressive (in terms of nodes) than that of many OMNI players. A lot of their players are content running around death-matching and not so aggressively attacking/building nodes;
I'm not even sure if our players can read maps, tbh...
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
It seems like it just trusts what the server says what your PPH is for the round.

I looked at the code a bit and concur.



However, another major difference between OMNI and CEONSS is not only style of play, but vehicles in play. Minos, Bios, Hurricanes, Dragons, and likely Levi/Krakens are HUGE point generators. For example spamming with the Mino from the bridge will get a high PPH, and the balancer will deem that player high value, vs. one that just takes a hoverboard and builds nodes...which one wins games?



I think there's no easy answer.


I think give it a few more weeks and see...Initially I was really not liking the mulligan, but its really better after you let go that you WON and now get to play again. It is indeed nice for a win with a well coordinated team with smart players vs. some of the spammers, campers and chaos factors.
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <LBG>LooseCannon View Post
Playing with this mid-game unbalancing nonsense has made playing about as fun as a toothache. Every night I have played in the last few weeks, 4 out of every 5 games follow the same pattern:

Match begins
Red has the majority of the strong players.
Red wins "too quickly"
Server invalidates the round by erasing the score and moves enough strong players to blue to throw the balance in the opposite direction.
Blue sweeps the second round as fast or faster than red did previously.
Blue gets two points and wins the game.

I'm not the best player (hell, I suck. I admit it,) but at least it was fun. Now, you have to wonder if you should put any real effort in, because if the server deems that effort too successful, you're going to get robbed of the victory so what's the point? After the second or third time in a row that you LOSE 2-0 because you WON too fast, there's no real desire left to stay and play anymore.

Seriously. Please turn that off.
LooseCannon's point is exactly what I was referring to in my post about the REMATCH. It would be better if this scenario happens to have an automatic 3rd round. Not something that has to be asked for or forced by an admin.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post

However, another major difference between OMNI and CEONSS is not only style of play, but vehicles in play. Minos, Bios, Hurricanes, Dragons, and likely Levi/Krakens are HUGE point generators. For example spamming with the Mino from the bridge will get a high PPH, and the balancer will deem that player high value, vs. one that just takes a hoverboard and builds nodes...which one wins games?
QFT

I mean, for obvious reasons, I don't know about the style of play differences between the two servers, but the point of the vehicle types
altering the PPH's is absolutely huge.

Based on my knowledge of PPR's (points per round) in Freon I know there isn't a simple answer to this issue, and that's in a gametype on a
server where the player population is consistent and the majority of players know the skillsets of the other players and how they impact that
gametype. ONS is much more complex and any balancer system is only going to provide a general framework. Mix in the players
that show up and dick around (which doesn't happen in Freon) and it becomes even more problematic.

Further to Pooty's point, and cuz' I want' to reminisce, I can remember the old days when teams of more talented players were
steamrolled by teams of "team" players.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
I looked at the code a bit and concur.
However, another major difference between OMNI and CEONSS is not only style of play, but vehicles in play. Minos, Bios, Hurricanes, Dragons, and likely Levi/Krakens are HUGE point generators. For example spamming with the Mino from the bridge will get a high PPH, and the balancer will deem that player high value, vs. one that just takes a hoverboard and builds nodes...which one wins games?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem View Post
QFT
I mean, for obvious reasons, I don't know about the style of play differences between the two servers, but the point of the vehicle types
altering the PPH's is absolutely huge.
100% true... it's even more obvious when you play on a server like unRealMassDestruction (RMD) where the ridiculously modded vehicles there make OMNI's look like stock vehicles, kinda like comparing a mino to a goliath. I rarely play there anymore because it stays mostly empty (go figure), but I did play there the other day and had a PPH of almost 2000 at the end of the match!
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