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View Poll Results: Should be auto balance between rounds or on map change only
Balance after each round 8 38.10%
Balance after each map only 13 61.90%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-15-2018, 10:36 PM   #1
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Folks, the question here is simple, should we let the team balancer auto balance during each round.

The biggest negative of this is the fact that people would join, might play for a while and then get switch after the round, not a good experience! The flip side is, it makes the whole map more even, gives the other side a chance and in the end would hopefully make the maps more balanced.

I'm not 100% convinced either way but I think because we haven't tried it yet, it might be something to experiment with and with the majority of players being regulars, I hope we wouldn't lose anyone for just trying it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:50 PM   #2
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Another idea is that the teams are balanced after the first round and the score limit is reduced to 2 points. That way you won't get a long six-round match, but you would get a do-over if the first round was a quick blowout.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:52 PM   #3
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I don't know, I would have to look, but is that available in the current balancer? If so, that should be (and I will add) another option in the poll

So don't vote yet, we may edit this
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by analog View Post
I don't know, I would have to look, but is that available in the current balancer? If so, that should be (and I will add) another option in the poll

So don't vote yet, we may edit this
"Team balance can be affected in many different ways:

Teams can be shuffled at match start in a way that tries to balance the potential team skill on both sides by aiming for only little difference in combined points per hour (PPH) for the players on each team
Particularly short first rounds (e.g. caused by skilled players joining shortly after match start) can be reset with another team shuffling and PPH balancing
After each round of a multi-round match, teams can be rebalanced to equal size
Players that join the match can be put specifically on the team that needs additional players
Players attempting to switch to the winning team can be forced to switch back to their original team
If teams get uneven during the match (e.g. due to leaving players), rebalancing by size can be triggered either automatically or on player request"
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:58 PM   #5
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https://github.com/TheRealWormbo/Eve...ster/README.md
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:03 PM   #6
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I take it you guys are talking about

"Particularly short first rounds (e.g. caused by skilled players joining shortly after match start) can be reset with another team shuffling and PPH balancing"

??

I can see adding that as a option, I'm not so sure about the others (and I don't see that option or the others as meaning a change after only the first map which is what Turbo is saying, but maybe it's too late for me)
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:20 PM   #7
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It seems to me that if you balance/scramble the teams after each round, you might as well be starting a new game. That's the whole point of having a second round instead of a whole new game is that you are still playing with the same team.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:34 PM   #8
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I'm strongly against any balancing after the match starts except for maybe a mulligan restart but I don't play much anymore so no biggy to me now.

If the balancer doesn't get it right on the first attempt why would it be better on the second? No one ever tries to answer that question.

At some point you have to live with what you've been given or there's no point in even keeping score. This isn't kindergarten.

Let me say what I've said many times... I was all for the balancer in the beginning and I really appreciate Wormbo's efforts but I don't feel like it has made things better at all and I think it may be even worse at times. My choice would definitely be to remove it.

..and what Berries said.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:46 PM   #9
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If the balancer doesn't get it right on the first attempt why would it be better on the second? No one ever tries to answer that question.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:56 PM   #10
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I don't experience this frustration at CEONNS. Somehow they figured it out. It's not 100% perfect there, but its FAR better there.

That said, I think I've said everything I can possibly say on this. It may just be time to find a game I find more balanced with a community that is a bit more interested in at least attempting to have a somewhat even match.

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Old 02-16-2018, 02:17 AM   #11
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Joins and departs.
That answers why you want balancing after the match starts but it doesn't answer why the balancer fails to get it right so often on the first try. There are often matches that are fucked from the beginning. Just a couple of minutes into the match with no one significant leaving or joining and teams will obviously be way unbalanced. From my point of view from playing on this server for more than 10 years there is no way in hell that teams are better now at the start of the round then they were 5 years ago. It doesn't work. I'm sorry but it doesn't fucking work. If it can't get it right on the first try then the only reason for the balancer to kick in after the match starts is because of people leaving and joining. This an PUB server. That's how they are.

Yes we are all here for fun but it's still a team competition with scoring. Don't take that away because of the inevitable occasional lopsided match. Don't change the way things have been for years because of what any old school player knows was just a phase.


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I don't experience this frustration at CEONNS. Somehow they figured it out. It's not 100% perfect there, but its FAR better there.

That said, I think I've said everything I can possibly say on this. It may just be time to find a game I find more balanced with a community that is a bit more interested in at least attempting to have a somewhat even match.

Andrew
Come on Lag, don't be like that. No one said they don't want even matches. What we have now is definitely an attempt. How can you say it isn't? What you guys are wanting goes beyond an attempt and, imo, is pretty solidly in aggressive manipulation territory. Definitely way beyond just an attempt.

You are looking for a line between the extremes of no auto-balancing and frequent inter-round auto-balancing. Just because someone doesn't agree with you on where that line should be doesn't mean they don't want even teams.

This all about a problem that didn't exist for 10 fucking years. Then we went through a phase where teams seemed like they were getting more and more unbalanced. It was said several times that this was because there was an increase in players switching to winning teams. I completely agree with that. Things were fine for many years. The game didn't change. The players and policing did. Now, ofc, that was entirely understandable considering the age of the game and the server. No one would expect the admins to be as present and aggressive as they were in past. Well, now the number of players switching to winning teams is back to what it was but we still have the solution to that problem in place. It's a solution with no problem. Just stop already and put shit back the way it was.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:36 AM   #12
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It wasn't like this for 10 years ago because when lopsided shit happened, I went to another server and played. Now that is really not an option.

Again. Ceonns figured it out. And that server is very active.

Quote:
No one said they don't want even matches.
Actions speak louder than words. People join the lopsided team to dominate. People rage when its fkd. People join late to fuck with the balancer. People leave after round start to fuck with the balancer. People basically never switch to support the losing team.

I am sure that has had no impact in the decay of people playing.

The issue is, this isn't 10 years ago. What we are doing now isn't working. What we did before didn't work. Going back is not a logical move when you can test things we have never tried before that may help... or may not. But again, what we have now is not enjoyable for me because a one sided blowout happens too frequently.

I would love to hear new peoples take on it. I won't post further here as I have said my part more than enough. Hearing the same 6 people say the exact same thing since we started with the balancer is not productive.

A
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:16 PM   #13
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I took a 5 year break from UT and just came back this past October. I dont know anything about the balancer except: during a round if someone calls teams and one team has at least 2 players more than the other, the person with the lowest score gets moved to the other team.

In between rounds I figure the balancer is doing its job but I dont know. Im all for testing something new but there are some variables that no script can anticipate.

Out of boredom with the usual 7 maps played during prime time, I have been spectating the past couple of weeks. I have noticed one constant pattern. The winning team has, the better bottom 3 players. Not best 3 at the top but the best 3 of the bottom vs the other teams bottom 3.

The team with the worst bottom 3 is like a team thats short 3 people. I dont think the balancer takes this in to account and its very dynamic from one round to another (as people join and leave).

Im all for even matches and experimenting. I dont care if you are god like and the balancer worked mostly. If you have 3 people screwing around on your team, its over.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
during a round if someone calls teams and one team has at least 2 players more than the other, the person with the lowest score gets moved to the other team
I don't think that's true, its the person who entered the game most recently regardless of score.

The real issue is its like hitting Termy or Anon doing a quad-jump, double wall dodge:

1. Players join and leave...how should the balancer handle that--like a match yesterday where I think the winning team got Enyo and Xexx in like a 2 minute span?
2. Players have different skills on different maps (yes PPH accounts for some of this, but not all)...some might be better at the dognuts position, some might be good at sneaking into the tub, others just want to mino-whore and spam from the bridge (and get lots of worthless points)
3. Sometimes (Often) players are drinking and the balancer doesn't account for drunkedness. Ok, maybe that's one's not really serious, but sometimes players just get in the zone and go on a roll.
4. Sometimes the team is just stupid and say on Minus tries to build five, while leaving 2/9 or 1/8 go to the enemy. You can rack up a high PPH with high damage vehicles but be relatively ineffective on game outcome.
5. Sometimes there's a good combination of players that balance teamwork, strategy and aggressive play (eg. Linking mino with link tank, covering missle tank with turtle in DJY, killing tank and builiding cabinet in bath, getting the mino to the bridge, etc.) I think this also goes to TotalBurn's point on our scrubs are better than your scrubs.

Some thoughts for Lag on why CEONSS is better at it: Maybe its the balancer (I think they do inter-match balancing) but I think the maps, while some are similar, don't seem to inspire as much, how do I say this, camp spamming, map domination especially certain maps/vehicles.

To quote the admin favorite SMOKER "Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield"

It kinda sucks and is frustrating to get pounded on, but like last night that lasted a couple of rounds and then BAM you're on the other side.

Maybe we just all miss GTKU's motivational speaking (err rants) to get substandard teams to do the minimum.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:50 PM   #15
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It wasn't like this for 10 years ago because when lopsided shit happened, I went to another server and played. Now that is really not an option.
I never went to other servers because of lopsided matches because it wasn't an issue. Never until right before the balancer was added where lopsided games an issue on this server. They happened of course, but they weren't an issue. That's my whole point. All of this is because of a short period when too many players were switching teams at the beginning of the match or during the rounds and there was a lull in admin presence. I know I smoke a lot of weed but I would remember there being a big issue about uneven matches. There wasn't. The only thing close to that was that a lot of good players had their team pref set to blue so there was this thing about blue winning more often, which I think was all in their minds actually.


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Again. Ceonns figured it out. And that server is very active.
They have a much different setup and I would say also a less douchey crowd. Plus more aggressive admin presence. Whether or not they figured it out on their server doesn't mean they could figure out on Omni.


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Actions speak louder than words. People join the lopsided team to dominate.
People don't do this nearly as much as this did right before the balancer was added. That was very bad phase for that kind of shit and, imo, it's back to about what it used to be before that. Report them or bring it the attention of the admin but don't change the game because of douchebags.

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People rage when its fkd.
Of course they do and you did this as much as anyone. No worries, play on.

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People join late to fuck with the balancer. People leave after round start to fuck with the balancer.
How do you know that's what they're doing? Are they telling you that? If so report them. I join late all the time. I'm not gonna sit around for an hour and wait for another match to start on a Pub server when I may only have a couple of hours to play. I try not leave right after the round starts but if I see the balancer completely fuck up the teams again then I'm gone.

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People basically never switch to support the losing team.
I don't blame people for not switching. That's a mess. I have switched MANY times to the losing team but I don't anymore. I feel bad when the team I switched to wins and often someone will join right after you switch and it's all fucked up again. So now I just stay were I was put and play it out or leave. The only time voluntary switching really works is with low player numbers.

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The issue is, this isn't 10 years ago. What we are doing now isn't working.
Which is why we should stop instead of going further down the path of aggressive manipulation of the game because of a few bad actors. The only thing that is different from 10 years ago is the behavior of a few players. No reason things can't be like they were with a little more admin action.

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What we did before didn't work.
YES IT DID. It worked on every server for years. This is not a fundamental issue of the game. It's a very recent situation that was caused by a few players. This is what pisses me off so much about all this. This assumption about the uneven matches crisis having always been there. FFS just kick the people team switching.

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Going back is not a logical move when you can test things we have never tried before that may help... or may not.
Help what? Unbalanced teams because of people switching. How about we just kick the fuckers instead. That worked for years.

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But again, what we have now is not enjoyable for me because a one sided blowout happens too frequently.
Yet you think it's better now than it was for all the years before the balancer was added?
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Old 02-16-2018, 06:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
[...]Some thoughts for Lag on why CEONSS is better at it: Maybe its the balancer (I think they do inter-match balancing) but I think the maps, while some are similar, don't seem to inspire as much, how do I say this, camp spamming, map domination especially certain maps/vehicles.[...]
Would be nice to keep the maps on CEONSS out of that topic. And not to blame any map anyway.
We (players, mappers, admins, myselve including) put much time in map editing, reviewing and creation. And everybody who has created or edited a map knows how time cunsuming that is. Yes we have a few "Spam" maps and they are intendet to be spamy when there are more players than the map is designed for. And yes there are maps which are dominated bye a certain vehicle like a big tank such as a mino (but you need to be able to use it the right way or it's useless).
To Quote Carpe on this as I like his message about that:
Spoiler!

Thank you.

PS: We have other round time and scoring (so you can't realy compare), using the quick round reset from wormbos even match and have even numbers when people join and leave.. and maybe most important: most of our players will balance the game thereselve they will may jump in or out the game when it would make it more even in the mid of the time due to joins and logs... and sometimes we (admins) switch players manual.
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #17
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I am highly against any balancing mid game. There's no point in attempting to win for your team and being forced to switch and fight against your own previous effort because someone is upset about losing the round. The balancer is skewed towards switching those people who are higher scoring which also destroys whatever vehicle they're in for some reason. It's artificial manipulation of the game because some people don't like the outcome of the round - just quit and take a break if you're that bothered, you've invested too much emotional energy.

That said, nothing is wrong with playing less rounds or getting new teams quicker. Cycle the map faster and getting more opportunities is fine. I'd personally prefer less large maps with less super vehicles and weapons, as I think it gives newbies more of a chance to be less bottom feeding and more maps to play when the server isn't full, there's too many people who simply don't know how to navigate large maps with a lot of vehicles.

The game has been modded away from its previous simplicity towards one shot wonders who camp strategic locations and it's affected the balance and playability quite a bit I think.

Last edited by Xexx; 02-17-2018 at 07:05 PM.. Reason: Changed mid round to mid game
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Old 02-17-2018, 04:34 PM   #18
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I am highly against any balancing mid round. There's no point in attempting to win for your team and being forced to switch and fight against your own previous effort because someone is upset about losing the round. The balancer is skewed towards switching those people who are higher scoring which also destroys whatever vehicle they're in for some reason. It's artificial manipulation of the game because some people don't like the outcome of the round - just quit and take a break if you're that bothered, you've invested too much emotional energy.

I believe there's some confusion on what we are talking about. Analog is proposing putting on the balancer during rounds, while the title suggests it'll only be done between rounds. In my chat with him in-game, I was under the impression that it would only be in between rounds.

There's been also a back and forth between Lag and Binger about how games were or were not 10 years ago. Rather than argue about that, I'll suggest testing the following balancing systems on different weekends, with a month's advance notice so everyone will know about it:

1. No Balancer
2. Pre-game and Post-round Balancer
3. Pre-game and Intra-round Balancer

Paying attention to our game experience with these balancing systems, we can determine which system generally results in better games. How does that sound?
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
Actions speak louder than words. People join the lopsided team to dominate. People rage when its fkd. People join late to fuck with the balancer. People leave after round start to fuck with the balancer. People basically never switch to support the losing team.
A
Please be careful making these accusations. I was accused the other night of trying to "beat the balancer" by leaving between matches and coming back in just after the balancer kicked in. Well that was an incorrect assumption and assertion by someone that has a weirdly obsessive beef with me (mostly based on false assumptions)... I went to tell my kids good night, pissed and came back. No ill intent there, and I have NEVER tried to game the balancer. If someone repeatedly and consistently leaves and returns between rounds, then maybe you can start to suspect they're gaming the balancer. I think there are very very few who actually do this.

Will I and have I rage quit before, sure... but you're all liars if you deny doing so yourself.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:33 AM   #20
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Please be careful making these accusations. I was accused the other night of trying to "beat the balancer" by leaving between matches and coming back in just after the balancer kicked in. Well that was an incorrect assumption and assertion by someone that has a weirdly obsessive beef with me (mostly based on false assumptions)... I went to tell my kids good night, pissed and came back. No ill intent there, and I have NEVER tried to game the balancer. If someone repeatedly and consistently leaves and returns between rounds, then maybe you can start to suspect they're gaming the balancer. I think there are very very few who actually do this.

Will I and have I rage quit before, sure... but you're all liars if you deny doing so yourself.
Be careful? What? This wasn't me seeing people have this happen once in a while like you describe. This is me seeing people doing it repeatedly.

Or I would not have said it.

Be careful. Please.

A
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