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Old 04-01-2019, 01:25 PM   #1
McLovin
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Default Question: When is it ok to spawn kill the enemy core?
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Question came up yesterday in-game, 4 replies, 4 different answers. Can somebody who knows respond? I'm not looking for opinions, just the hard cold facts if there are any. If it isn't written in the rule book, then please poop out your opinions on the subject.

Back in the day, Guy would give the order, "RAPE THE CORE", the good ol glory days, haha!
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Old 04-01-2019, 08:02 PM   #2
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Base rape is ok if you say it beforehand, imo.
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:07 PM   #3
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People were complaining about "nameless person" spamming vehicles at their core on an MTMU map. Ha, like that never happens, right. I'm not going to name em because I didn't see it first-hand. Primary nodes were locked and the match was still even.

Which started the discussion in-game.

Some ideas Iíve heard:

1. The defending enemy core is untouchable until at least 1 defending team primary node is locked by advancing offensive team.
Highest most honorable way. Not my fav but I understand the sportsmanship logic of it.

2. If they have no nodes, their core is fair game, pin-em-down, keep em bogged down at their own core.

3. That big grey-area between idea #2 and #4.

4. Free-for-all, anything is fair game at any time. There is no honor in war.
Will absolutely piss people off and youíll be flagged a douche-bag.
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Old 04-02-2019, 03:10 PM   #4
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When you can damage the core.
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:04 PM   #5
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4.

Where ever most of the enemy is at is where you should be, to engage as soon as possible. 5 seconds of immunity is enough carebear hand holding. Flanking is basic strategy 101. Don't come down the center road from directly in front of the base where the enemy is expecting you to be, it's stupid. There are too many long range options that can spawn at the core in MTMU that needs to be dealt with. The turrets, the board with suicide nuke, the deemer tank, rail tanks, then you have the dragon and mino. Likewise the double damage and ion painters near the first node need to be suppressed as well.
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:03 PM   #6
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Zombie YEAAHH here. I'd go with #4 at the cost of annoying people. Unless you're glitching, I always thought map is a free-for-all.

There have been some lengthy threads figuring out what the actual rules are (one started by myself) and I thought it was ruled ultimately "anything goes but be prepared for people to hate you".

I see nothing wrong with warming up their core a bit with mino spam as your team is trying to build the primary, heck even the secondary. Sometimes it's what it takes to tip the scale a bit so you can finally get the necessary nodes up.

People who come all the way across the map to do that are usually annoying and lame, however I'd just ignore them and get back to where the action is.
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:37 PM   #7
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A compulsion to dominate others is not compatible with good sportsmanship.
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Old 04-04-2019, 09:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binger View Post
A compulsion to dominate others is not compatible with good sportsmanship.
Maybe, but there is also something called a compassionate or clean kill, ie, put them out of their misery. This could be considered good sportsmanship (not an honorable Klingon death). Preference to drag it out, in my book, would be considered sadistic.

I often hear on the losing team, "Let's get this over with", when the end is near.


On a similar note...
"There are plenty of times she likes it rough and to be dominated into complete submission.", Haha!

Last edited by McLovin; 04-04-2019 at 11:38 AM..
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:15 PM   #9
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My understanding has always been when the losing side has no nodes, core rape is perfectly justifiable since the losing team should be ashamed of themselves anyway. Spamming core vehicles is simply douchey. I know that the mino is fair game for being spawn killed in the core but to my knowledge, that's it.

Spawn killing at the core is the same as spawn killing at a locked, non-adjacent node. It's just not allowed unless the losing team has no nodes.
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:56 PM   #10
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Back in the day, well before any of you played ONS here, there was no hard and fast rule. Anything went.
I can remember going to the enemy core in Battlefront and pushing their Manta around the corner. Where
it would sit, un-used. Technically that wasn't spawn killing.

Depriving opponents of hardware was always a viable method of play in those days.

But over time, ONS became "snow-flake" material. If one (or several) players decided they didn't like the
way other players were playing the game, the hew and cry became deafening.

The links/way to the past was lost.

So the simple answer ? There really isn't one.

The less basic rules have become fluid, open to interpretation. In the end, the objective of ONS is to destroy
the enemies core (and take their women) and to that end how it is accomplished is a moot point.

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Old 04-04-2019, 08:20 PM   #11
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That's the first time in my life that I've been grouped in with the snowflakes.

So why was Pam banned? Why was Roger banned? Why was Mutant Pilgrim banned? Nothing they did hurt their own team and probably actually helped.

Spawn killing is okay. Spamming locked nodes and cores is okay. Those things definitely help your team. Anything goes. Good to know. I will adjust my play style.
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Old 04-04-2019, 08:48 PM   #12
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Hm, it's about the extremes. When the teams are full with 32 players and 4 spectators, most of us do not want teammates just loitering around the enemy core trying to destroy vehicles when they could be doing something more useful. I didn't mind these players (Pam, Roger, Pilgrim, etc.) much myself, but too much of that could make it quite annoying if they just kept on destroying all the vehicles that make the gameplay fun. A few warnings should be issued, but if the player just adamantly refuses to stop destroying enemy core vehicles day after day after day, then I could understand why the player was banned for the betterment of the gaming community. In hindsight, I do pretty much agree Pam, Roger, and Pilgrim shouldn't have been permabanned because I have not seen them screwing things up too much when I was playing with/against them. Temporary suspensions should be handed out more often before just outright banning (jail sentences vs capital punishment, lol).


In my case, I have not had an issue with any of the admins over 15 years of playing UT2k4, on any of the servers until... you guessed it, Enyo when he couldn't keep his filthy admin hands off of me! I do admit it that I probably seeded it a bit against him weeks beforehand when I placed a kick vote against him for blasting everybody on top of JunkYard's core with his mino. It was just a rival-ish gesture, but the rivalry probably got more bitter from there. Most players would destroy enemy core spawns if it made sense with no other nodes left to destroy. Even Anonymous does it on MTMU maps. The only other player that had quite a vocal issue about my gameplay style was GuythatKillsU, after we started taunting each other - it was fun for me to taunt him after killing him 10x in a row then it started boiling his bloodstream into a fevered rage. I'm just glad he never became an Admin!!!


It's just a game.. some players have different ways of enjoying it. Fun is what it should be about. No biggie, no worries.
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Old 04-04-2019, 08:58 PM   #13
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Oh, BTW, are there any maps that have spawned locked vehicles immune to enemy damage until a teammate unlocks the vehicle? I do recall it being on some maps on one of the servers - not sure if OMNI has any of these. If it's such a big issue, then why don't map editors just edit that in? I'd rather not have to worry about that than be tip-toeing my way around the enemy core. But yeah, for some reason, it does make the game less fun if we can't do any harm to enemy spawn vehicles...
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem View Post
Back in the day, well before any of you played ONS here, there was no hard and fast rule. Anything went.
I can remember going to the enemy core in Battlefront and pushing their Manta around the corner. Where
it would sit, un-used. Technically that wasn't spawn killing.

Depriving opponents of hardware was always a viable method of play in those days.
Ah, the good ole days, when the Manta on Battlefront was the key vehicle in the game. You could use it to transport troops to the enemy lines or get behind enemy lines. It was awesome if you could steal the enemy Manta and keep it out of their hands. But hiding it from them was the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem View Post
But over time, ONS became "snow-flake" material. If one (or several) players decided they didn't like the
way other players were playing the game, the hew and cry became deafening.
QFT
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Old 04-06-2019, 12:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem View Post
Back in the day, well before any of you played ONS here, there was no hard and fast rule. Anything went.
I can remember going to the enemy core in Battlefront and pushing their Manta around the corner. Where
it would sit, un-used. Technically that wasn't spawn killing.

Depriving opponents of hardware was always a viable method of play in those days.

But over time, ONS became "snow-flake" material. If one (or several) players decided they didn't like the
way other players were playing the game, the hew and cry became deafening.

The links/way to the past was lost.

So the simple answer ? There really isn't one.

The less basic rules have become fluid, open to interpretation. In the end, the objective of ONS is to destroy
the enemies core (and take their women) and to that end how it is accomplished is a moot point.

So, what do ya say Carpe, let's go old school and say there are no rules against spawn killing? I'm all in for a no holds barred, no limit, all bets are off free for all with the spawn killing... at core, locked nodes or otherwise. Seems like there's just too much gray area for any rules on it. It sure would make admin-ing a lot easier.
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Old 04-06-2019, 04:56 AM   #16
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I don't think spawnkilling is actually bad - if it takes enough effort to do so.

Taking out the enemy vehicles should be a tradeoff of time that the player does not spend helping his own team to progress their objectives. And the enemy team should have a chance to fight back against that. But if you can just one-shot most vehicles and respawning players with some of the superpowered vehicles with unlimited ammunition and without even requiring precise aiming due to huge splash damage, then it becomes an issue.

Basically: Fine in vanilla, problematic on TMU-maps.
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Old 04-06-2019, 12:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binger View Post
So why was Pam banned? Why was Roger banned? Why was Mutant Pilgrim banned? Nothing they did hurt their own team and probably actually helped.
This...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoFox View Post
Hm, it's about the extremes.

And the fact they were asked repeatedly to cease and desist. They decided that what they wanted to do trumped the decisions of

the Admins. Bad move.


and this

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoFox View Post

It's just a game.. some players have different ways of enjoying it. Fun is what it should be about. No biggie, no worries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
So, what do ya say Carpe, let's go old school and say there are no rules against spawn killing? I'm all in for a no holds barred, no limit, all bets are off free for all with the spawn killing... at core, locked nodes or otherwise. Seems like there's just too much gray area for any rules on it. It sure would make admin-ing a lot easier.
Do it. Everyone play the way they want to play. However, Crusha's point needs some consideration:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool View Post
.....

Basically: Fine in vanilla, problematic on TMU-maps.
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Old 04-07-2019, 10:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool View Post
I don't think spawnkilling is actually bad - if it takes enough effort to do so.

Taking out the enemy vehicles should be a tradeoff of time that the player does not spend helping his own team to progress their objectives. And the enemy team should have a chance to fight back against that. But if you can just one-shot most vehicles and respawning players with some of the superpowered vehicles with unlimited ammunition and without even requiring precise aiming due to huge splash damage, then it becomes an issue.

Basically: Fine in vanilla, problematic on TMU-maps.
This is my issue as well. If you're camping a locked node with a dragon and just dropping bombs from on top of the buildings on Minus that's a dick move. If you're shooting the base with a mino that's a dick move. If you're slowing down a team by fighting on foot or in something like a tank or badger then not so much.
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Old 04-07-2019, 11:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rando View Post
This is my issue as well. If you're camping a locked node with a dragon and just dropping bombs from on top of the buildings on Minus that's a dick move. If you're shooting the base with a mino that's a dick move. If you're slowing down a team by fighting on foot or in something like a tank or badger then not so much.
I get it but we’re starting to draw those fuzzy lines again about what’s ok spawn killing and what’s not. Either we set some hard and fast rules about what’s allowed and what isn’t, or ALL spawn killing is allowed. Problem with making rules about it is that practically every map needs its own set of rules. AND it’s pretty much up to admin discretion as to whether any specific act of spawn killing is egregious enough for a kick, which leads to screams of “admin abuse” (or supposed favoritism if someone isn’t kicked) and an ensuing whine fest and never-ending discussion on the forums.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:44 PM   #20
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As all servers are private, they have all there own rules. Also when the most comman rules are the same for most servers and even most games.


OMNI always had some more "relaxed" rules against spawnkilling than CEONSS had. For example on "AlienHop" it is comman to drive the Mino the the other core and slash the core, that's why I personally don't like that map here. On any MTMU maps that corespam mostly is on the end of the map.. so somehow ok.


On CEONSS we have hard rules http://ceonss.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=467 "Spawn killing: Waiting for opponents to respawn at a locked node and then kill them while your are fully armed is really bad manners.". Sure on some maps like Deathdoom it's ok, but they are made exactly for that. When we build or rebuiild maps we also try to put the spawnpoints so that you can't spawn kill so easily.


Just want to point out that you please respect the rules from other servers when you play there, also when on OMNI there will may be no rules anymore. (So now write it with correct grammar.)




@Bofox: There is the option to keep a vehicle inviolable in a map for some secconds after the spawn. Chrusha put it in his tools. I used it on some maps for some key vehicles, but not for all. There is also a vehicle healing mutator which will heal locked vehicles and reset them to the spawnpoints when they are to far away. With ONS-Plus you can also sellect the eyit point from a vehicle.
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