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Old 03-09-2019, 11:12 PM   #1
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Sooooooo, ever since we got rid of the balancer and mulligan, the old "damned if you do, damned if you don't" idiom seems to hold true more than ever. The balancer was implemented in light of the desire to create some (false) semblance of balance, which is NOT possible in onslaught. The mulligan was added to negate a potentially poor balance and the scoring was changed to best of 3 to make matches shorter. Almost everyone bitched about the mulligan (being robbed of 2 points), bitched about the new scoring (the matches are too quick) and bitched about the balancer (it never balances well).

Now that we got rid of all 3 and went back to the "old" way of things... lo' and behold the bitching continues! Now the matches are too long ("5 more rounds"), or the teams are always unbalanced ("is this really better than the balancer?"). Don't even get me started on the constant bashing of the map rotation, to which NOBODY volunteers to learn mapping so that it can be evolved and improved.

This server is literally the ONLY active North American onslaught server left, and you actually still have active admins here that give a damn about this game. So, play your hardest, play as a teammate, and go to fucking nodes. Quit sitting back in turrets or camping at a friendly node waiting for an enemy to turn the corner so you can take a cheap shot at them and get an easy kill. Speed and aggression win in onslaught... learn that and play accordingly. The reason balance seems so bad these days is because a lot of the really aggressive players have left and we are left with a bunch of turd bags that just don't go to nodes. Ironically those are usually the same shites that bitch about balance.

Seriously, try to improve your level of play or shut up about the team balance. Build or edit a new map, or shut up about the "shit maps."
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:50 PM   #2
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Hm, speed and aggression - going after the nodes.. yeah, agreed (I need to focus more on that myself, lol).

How about shorten the time limit for a round? It's like 30 minutes - IIRC?.. Then the core HP starts counting down based on how many nodes are captured. How about 20 minutes? It'd probably be the sweet spot for me. Whaddya guys think?
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Old 03-10-2019, 07:32 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Sooooooo, ever since we got rid of the balancer and mulligan, the old "damned if you do, damned if you don't" idiom seems to hold true more than ever. The balancer was implemented in light of the desire to create some (false) semblance of balance, which is NOT possible in onslaught. The mulligan was added to negate a potentially poor balance and the scoring was changed to best of 3 to make matches shorter. Almost everyone bitched about the mulligan (being robbed of 2 points), bitched about the new scoring (the matches are too quick) and bitched about the balancer (it never balances well).

Now that we got rid of all 3 and went back to the "old" way of things... lo' and behold the bitching continues! Now the matches are too long ("5 more rounds"), or the teams are always unbalanced ("is this really better than the balancer?"). Don't even get me started on the constant bashing of the map rotation, to which NOBODY volunteers to learn mapping so that it can be evolved and improved.

This server is literally the ONLY active North American onslaught server left, and you actually still have active admins here that give a damn about this game. So, play your hardest, play as a teammate, and go to fucking nodes. Quit sitting back in turrets or camping at a friendly node waiting for an enemy to turn the corner so you can take a cheap shot at them and get an easy kill. Speed and aggression win in onslaught... learn that and play accordingly. The reason balance seems so bad these days is because a lot of the really aggressive players have left and we are left with a bunch of turd bags that just don't go to nodes. Ironically those are usually the same shites that bitch about balance.

Seriously, try to improve your level of play or shut up about the team balance. Build or edit a new map, or shut up about the "shit maps."
I feel personally attacked! Agree with what you say here even though I am guilty of camping (and complaining!). I am happy just to have a server to still play on even if it's not my ideal version of ONS. (Stock vehicle maps ftw!). Really the only thing I'd like to see change is not having multiple versions of the same maps on the server. Far too often minus gets voted back to back because of this. The rest of the stuff I'll throw my 2 cents on occasion but really doesn't bother me much. The facts are there are a handful of really good players but the majority of them are pretty average. This is going to lead to unbalanced teams no matter what you do imo.
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:42 AM   #4
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I wish you guy could figure out how the DW scoring systems is implemented. I know it was discussed with maybe Binger but maybe that would be a good compromise. He said he didnt understand how we got the code to work.

I just hate the 5 rounders but alot of it is I hate most of the popular maps like Artic thats played 8pm EST every night. So 5 rounds is really like pulling teeth.
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Old 03-10-2019, 10:44 AM   #5
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...So, play your hardest, play as a teammate, and go to fucking nodes. Quit sitting back in turrets or camping at a friendly node waiting for an enemy to turn the corner so you can take a cheap shot at them and get an easy kill. Speed and aggression win in onslaught... learn that and play accordingly. The reason balance seems so bad these days is because a lot of the really aggressive players have left and we are left with a bunch of turd bags that just don't go to nodes. Ironically those are usually the same shites that bitch about balance.

Seriously, try to improve your level of play or shut up about the team balance. Build or edit a new map, or shut up about the "shit maps."
One of the best ways to improve your level of play is to spectate. Some of our most creative players I've ever witnessed, Roger and Termi, have an imagination for pushing the envelope way beyond what is ordinary. Of course they got the best douche moves, but they've toned that down to acceptable levels, watch them and learn how to be creative.

Spec Army, Enyo, Sarge, Dognuts, and Spoon, and you'll learn the best practices that win maps. So frustrating watching a low-score newbie, wondering if they are playing or not cause they've been in-game for 5 minutes with no score, only to see them running from node to node or going after targets that don't matter. I can't kick em cause they aren't idle or fucking off, they are doing their best with the little skill set they have.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by joeblow View Post
I wish you guy could figure out how the DW scoring systems is implemented. I know it was discussed with maybe Binger but maybe that would be a good compromise. He said he didnt understand how we got the code to work.

I just hate the 5 rounders but alot of it is I hate most of the popular maps like Artic thats played 8pm EST every night. So 5 rounds is really like pulling teeth.
That's the general consensus... the majority disliking 5-rounders.



In my previous post, I suggested reducing the countdown deadline from 30 minutes to 20 minutes for each round, but that would just result in more 1-point rounds.



So, we need an additional solution for this:


A) Make it so that if the round ends due to the countdown deadline, the winning team gets 2 points instead of just 1. It's a win, alright - and nobody wants 5 rounds anyway.
OR

B) Make it so that no matter how the round ends, the winning team gets only 1 point. The map competition is over once a team scores 2 points, and it's time to vote for the next map. I think that's how CEONSS did it before they started the mulligan thing, I think.


That way, there is a solution to the adage, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" by finding the middle road!



Don't forget - core countdown after 20 minutes, instead of 30 minutes please. Mailbox??? Don't be a snob and ignore me!
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:27 PM   #7
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@joeblow, I'm pretty sure it requires a server mutator. I did check the client stuff from DW just in case but I didn't see any changes to the scoring. I'm guessing it's as simple as extending the main Onslaught file and altering the scoring section in there, which I believe I have found, but I don't know how to make a server mutator and I haven't found anything on the internet about it. Just stuff for vehicles and weapons that aren't server side.


@BoFox, Rounds are currently set to 10 minutes and have never been at 20 or 30 minutes on this server since I've been playing on it. Both of your suggestions are effectively the same and are the system that DW has and that would require a mutator.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:08 AM   #8
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10 minutes?!?? I'm feeling so confused now, lol. It always seemed to be much longer than that..
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:44 AM   #9
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The reason balance seems so bad these days is because a lot of the really aggressive players have left and we are left with a bunch of turd bags that just don't go to nodes.
Nah.... The reason is escalation (of damage).

The poor players have always been there since day 1. I know because I used to be one of them. UT2004 was my first venture into competitive online gaming beginning with the demo cycle of torlan an primeval. When I first started playing I couldn't even do a non-standstill shock combo considered dodge jump dark magics. My primary weapon of choice was the minigun. I slowly got better. By the time I hit my ceiling, I could join a map on DW or OMNI and know that I could bring back the losing side regardless of the current state of the map. By the time I hung up my spurs for good, that was simply no longer true. There is so much damage in the game, that no matter how skilled a player one is, nodes & nexuses just fall too fast to cover them all. The maps have become much more team dependent to their detriment. The reason being is that 1 or 2 solid players in the old days could keep their team afloat long enough to hope for an OT win even if the odds were heavily stacked against them. That simply is not possible anymore, doesn't matter how good you are. If the enemy team has 1 more good player than you, and that player is in a high DPS vehicle, the map is pretty much over at that point. And that makes the lack of balancing, which used to be held in check by the time-sink of killing nodes, much more severely felt.


TLDR, if you want more competitive games regardless of teams, reduce available DPS. I know that won't happen because of something to do with horses and water....


Also, the system I suggested is effectively the same as DW, just with no mutator required. But previous statement still applies.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:02 PM   #10
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Nah.... The reason is escalation (of damage).

The poor players have always been there since day 1.
True, I agree that the higher damage vehicles do exacerbate the imbalance in that it only takes one more skilled player to quickly tip the balance. BUT, the frequent imbalance is also definitely attributed to the fact that there are so few skilled players left that one more on a team can tip the balance on ANY map with any vehicle load out. The gross imbalance also happens on maps like MasterBath, Bitchslap, StarReach, Rail and the recently added STOCK Torlan. All those maps have no super-powered vehicles (exception of the ion on MB, which doesn't typically tip the balance), and a team having one or two extra skilled AND aggressive players can and does result in quick and total slaughter.

But, again, you are right about the high damage vehicles. Let's say maybe that both contribute to the frequent imbalance? Either way, I guess my main point that I did not make very well in my OP is please quit all the bitching about the maps and the scoring if you're not willing to contribute to changing those. And quit complaining about balance and just accept that it's not going to change in a game this old. If some players haven't improved beyond where they are at this point, they're probably not going to.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:48 PM   #11
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Well, it is not solely damage, the other big culprit is movement speed (vehicles) and alternate forms of speedy map mobility (portals in MB for example). And finally there is reduced node health, which while more rare, has the same net effect.... actually even worse since lower node health applies to all players & weapons.

The imbalance has always been there, it was just previously masked by the slower pace of the game (and choke nodes) which allowed high skill players on the disfavored team time to manage the map. Choke nodes are an abomination for competitive play, but they also serve(d) a much needed purpose for public servers with no ladder/rating system.

Primeval is a good example. Another is DW Masterbath vs OMNI Masterbath. The SSR in DW MB, lack of health and shield, and lower portal count, make progress much more difficult if each team has at least 1 player who can aim reasonably well. In the OMNI version, the lack of SSR and greater portal paths means 1 skilled player can't really defend the tank & middle node anymore. This allows for effective zerg rush strats on the goliath, and cabinet/tub which can not be adequately defended without an SSR. Generally, the SSR does not belong in ONS, but in a few rare cases it did serve an actual purpose.

Bitchslap also depends on the version quite a bit. But if it is more or less the classic, it should not be lost pre-ot anyway. StarReach is a higher skill cap map because of the low grav and lack of access to nodes combined with the relative vulnerability of primaries (superweapons) and their shielded nature. It is sort of balanced by the difficultly of converting the primary to core damage, but not really enough.

If one wanted to keep all the new stuff but in a more classic style, one could start by reducing OP vehicle damage by say 20% across the board, increasing node health, reducing ubiquitous superweapons, and resetting broken movement speed vehicles back to their default or at least more sane values. But I have the feeling I have said all of this before.... so good luck with that...
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:17 AM   #12
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@BoFox, Rounds are currently set to 10 minutes and have never been at 20 or 30 minutes on this server since I've been playing on it. Both of your suggestions are effectively the same and are the system that DW has and that would require a mutator.
Are you sure that it's 10 minutes? Perhaps my sense of time is warped when playing the game - I forgot to check today to see how long it is, argh!

If mulligan could be implemented (I'm assuming without a mutator?), couldn't such a simple change to the scoring system be implemented as well? If not, then I'm surprised.

Perhaps we could just make the rounds even shorter - even halving them? We just spent over a hour in Dria, and it was horrible for me - the framerate tanked to under 20-25 average fps for most of the time on the map. It was rather unusual this time around for Dria. Anyway, it was a gruesome 5-rounder and my wrists needed a break after this. (Also, according to psychology, it's good to take a breather after every 20 minutes, no longer. That's why TV commercials are good for us, lol.)

If we can't implement any other changes other than shortening the rounds, I would definitely welcome the changes even if there's only half the duration (but with the same core countdown period). While it wouldn't change the fact that some cool maps are won over so quickly without mulligan, with 2 points for 2 rounds for the winning team, it would in many cases prolong the use of the map that would have otherwise been won with 2 points instead of 1 point. A WIN.

Another WIN is that the timed-out rounds are considerably shorter and if both teams duel each other for 5 rounds, it would take far less than the usual 1+ hour for the map (that many players dread).

Guys, let's just halve the times of the rounds (without changing the overtime countdown rate). That would be a great substitute for mulligan, without the drawbacks of mulligan (zero scoring which everybody loathes).



P.S. - The time of the rounds can be changed without needing a mutator, right? If we could change the overtime core countdown rate, that would be cool as well - and I have some other ideas regarding this.
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:07 PM   #13
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Are you sure that it's 10 minutes? Perhaps my sense of time is warped when playing the game - I forgot to check today to see how long it is, argh!
Positive. I think at one point recently it may have been set to 8 minutes but unless it was changed in the last day or so it's at 10 minutes, which is where it's mostly been since I started playing on this server in 2007. Five 10 minute rounds plus about 5 minutes of OT for each round is 75 minutes in those long matches. Max I've seen is about 78 minutes. I think the current core drain is about half of the old setting so about 2.5 minutes of OT.

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If mulligan could be implemented (I'm assuming without a mutator?), couldn't such a simple change to the scoring system be implemented as well? If not, then I'm surprised.
The mulligan uses a mutator. The 2/1 point system can't be changed through the menu system and I'm sure also not through an ini file so it will require a mutator.

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Perhaps we could just make the rounds even shorter - even halving them?...

If we can't implement any other changes other than shortening the rounds, I would definitely welcome the changes even if there's only half the duration (but with the same core countdown period). While it wouldn't change the fact that some cool maps are won over so quickly without mulligan, with 2 points for 2 rounds for the winning team, it would in many cases prolong the use of the map that would have otherwise been won with 2 points instead of 1 point. A WIN.

Another WIN is that the timed-out rounds are considerably shorter and if both teams duel each other for 5 rounds, it would take far less than the usual 1+ hour for the map (that many players dread).

Guys, let's just halve the times of the rounds (without changing the overtime countdown rate). That would be a great substitute for mulligan, without the drawbacks of mulligan (zero scoring which everybody loathes).
Check out this thread for some talk on round length and OT core drain. Core drain is currently about half of the old system. I would prefer shorter rounds and longer OT. At one point I was for faster core drain I now don't like it.

http://forum.omnipotents.com/showthread.php?t=14897

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P.S. - The time of the rounds can be changed without needing a mutator, right? If we could change the overtime core countdown rate, that would be cool as well - and I have some other ideas regarding this.

Both round times and core drain can be adjusted without a mutator.
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:22 PM   #14
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Thanks Binger!! BTW, I was just kidding with the smilies - no offense, guys. Some of you guys might not agree with me. If not, then let's just try it and see how it goes!

The benefit we'd immediately notice is that there is considerably greater stability to the map turnover rate. We'd have noticeably longer use of many of the maps that we vote, BUT they would never be more than 2/3 the time of the dreaded 5-rounders as they currently are, since the pre-overtime duration would be halved. On the other hand, the longer use of some of the maps with more 1-point rounds would allow for more chances of getting the mino (or a vehicle) that you always wanted at the beginning, using different team strategies, focusing more on the strategy of the map, etc.. It would also be more welcoming to players who have just joined the game in the middle of the map, looking forward to the next round. After all, the core countdown could add some more suspense to the gameplay - and it'd be fun to experience that more frequently. Please, guys, let's just try it out and see?
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:30 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by -Goose- View Post

If one wanted to keep all the new stuff but in a more classic style, one could start by reducing OP vehicle damage by say 20% across the board, increasing node health, reducing ubiquitous superweapons, and resetting broken movement speed vehicles back to their default or at least more sane values. But I have the feeling I have said all of this before.... so good luck with that...

Good to see you still floating around my friend.

I've been preaching on this point for years, but what do I know. The original vehicle mods that appeared on Omni courtesy of Gorz were new and refreshing.
One thing he always did was for every "super" vehicle he implemented was introduce a kryptonite for it. It worked, for two or three years. Then he disappeared,
and the growth of "new and improved" vehicles/weapons continued unabated, with no kryptonite. For me personally, that was the beginning of the end of my
ONS days. But hey, that's an old story...
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:03 PM   #16
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There is a chance my ISP will actually upgrade me to fiber this year, fixing my ping issue. Might have to re-install (again) if that happens .
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:37 PM   #17
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Man, I'm tired of ONS now. I keep on thinking about vehicle DM and am hoping for more games in the future (UT4, UT5, etc.) to use vehicle DM mode or dramatically improved ONS mode that is less tedious with racing to the nodes, destroying and building nodes..

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I've been preaching on this point for years, but what do I know. The original vehicle mods that appeared on Omni courtesy of Gorz were new and refreshing.
One thing he always did was for every "super" vehicle he implemented was introduce a kryptonite for it. It worked, for two or three years. Then he disappeared,
and the growth of "new and improved" vehicles/weapons continued unabated, with no kryptonite. For me personally, that was the beginning of the end of my
ONS days. But hey, that's an old story...
The bio gun is kryptonite for the mino - I think it became kryptonite after Gorz left? Well, there's the Venom MKII (like a Raptor, but shoots slime) that can destroy the mino in like 1 second, and is on MagicIsle. If a map modder could add the Venom MKII to MTMU, replacing one of the hoverboards, that would be awesome. Also a spider to replace the PPC tank, since the spider is really effective against the dragon, and can also levitate a mino in the air using passenger seat fire. After all, this is how ONS started out - with a leviathan, but it was not used on so many maps like the mino is now.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:54 PM   #18
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Man, I'm tired of ONS now. I keep on thinking about vehicle DM and am hoping for more games in the future (UT4, UT5, etc.) to use vehicle DM mode or dramatically improved ONS mode that is less tedious with racing to the nodes, destroying and building nodes..
ummm, newsflash ! That's what ONS is. Come try your hand at Freon; DM with a team component and thawing gives
one the opportunity to play. We're always looking for new victims players.


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The bio gun is kryptonite for the mino - I think it became kryptonite after Gorz left?
No, the bio tank was the Minnow's kryptonite.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:24 PM   #19
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Sure, I'll play freon with you but I'm going to check out other games that I've always been wanting to play.

Of course, the bio tank was kryptonite for all vehicles, but I don't think it was for a couple years until the bio GUN's slime could actually do any serious damage to the mino. Now, we can just destroy enemy mino by jumping on top of it and emptying the bio gun on it. We can't even destroy a regular tank by doing this.
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:38 PM   #20
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Sure, I'll play freon with you but I'm going to check out other games that I've always been wanting to play.

Of course, the bio tank was kryptonite for all vehicles, but I don't think it was for a couple years until the bio GUN's slime could actually do any serious damage to the mino. Now, we can just destroy enemy mino by jumping on top of it and emptying the bio gun on it. We can't even destroy a regular tank by doing this.
You should definitely check out freon bofox, you'd be really good at it.
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