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Old 11-26-2018, 05:21 PM   #21
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The core drain time stirred some controversy/discussion when that was changed a while back. People don't seem to mind now (myself included).
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:21 PM   #22
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The new scoring is ok, but I agree with others that it can be a bit short. Granted, prior to the change matches could go very long (Dria, Junkyard), so it is still an improvement. It would be disappointing joining the server in a "bad" part of the rotation when all the favorites had already been played and it would be hours before they became available again.

Best 2 out of 3 that others have mentioned seems like a nice balance.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
The core drain time stirred some controversy/discussion when that was changed a while back. People don't seem to mind now (myself included).

Has the core drain time changed with the new scoring? IIRC, it was sped up previous to speed up matches, with the new scoring I'd be in favor of slower OT to allow for more/possible comebacks.
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Old 11-27-2018, 02:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
Has the core drain time changed with the new scoring? IIRC, it was sped up previous to speed up matches, with the new scoring I'd be in favor of slower OT to allow for more/possible comebacks.
<--- Interested in this idea
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Old 11-27-2018, 02:22 PM   #25
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<--- Interested in this idea
Me too.
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Old 11-27-2018, 03:56 PM   #26
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Hi everyone, thanks a lot for the feedback, and for Carpe unretracting my retraction.

Going through the posts here and playing some games, I do agree that 1 round games are pretty bleh, and also agree that reducing regulation wins to 1 point would be ideal.

Since there seems to be no dissent for 1 point regulation wins, I'll ask Carpe to put that change in and see what people think. I may also run a ranked choice poll to see which scoring system people'd like best. The ranked choice vote currently would be with the following:

* Old System
- Score Limit: 3
no Mulligan
10 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
* Fri-Sat-Mon trial system
- Score Limit: 2
8 minute Mulligan timer
10 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
* "DW System" + mulligan
- Score Limit: 2
5 minute Mulligan timer
10 minute regulation time
1 points for regulation win
* Goose proposal
- Score Limit: 3
no Mulligan
2 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
reduced overtime core drain
This would probably be just an opinion poll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
Has the core drain time changed with the new scoring? IIRC, it was sped up previous to speed up matches, with the new scoring I'd be in favor of slower OT to allow for more/possible comebacks.
Core drain has not been changed. We could definitely take a look into changing that, too. I don't know the existing/old numbers off hand, though.

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Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
Matches that only last one round and conclude with a 2-point RT victory, within the slim "post-mulligan, pre-OT" window (so in this case, between 7 and 10 minutes), are a legitimate concern, especially for the player group that approaches the philosophical question of what should be the cardinal priority in deciding the GoalScore and the use of related settings and mods with the response, "whatever prevents us from having 1 round, drive-by matches, wasting a map."
Mango down.

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In that sense, I'll be eager to see how the performance of this change is tracked and measured over the following weeks (e.g. in terms of mulligan matches vs. total amount of legit/over-12p matches, frequency of RT victories *after* a mulligan, percentage of 1-round matches vs. total legit matches, avg. number of matches per 2-hour session, etc.), and what corrective actions, if any, it might lead to - there's interesting stuff to be learned there, and, of course, room for further tweaking, if, say, 7 minutes proves to not be the optimal cut-off point for Omni!
I'd love it if we had that data accessible. But as-is, Epic's stat tracking doesn't correctly display info for most of OMNI's maps, and we don't have a stat tracker of our own (I made a post about having one in the past). The only alternative would probably be manually observing and recording matches, which isn't too ideal.

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Originally Posted by EmanReleipS View Post
Don't let yourself get discouraged by the negative comments! I know there is a lot of fear around "changing a running system", but this will be a breath of fresh air as well. I remember that we had times when we tried out several voting types on CEONSS before settling on one. It didn't scare our players off. Even if all of your new ideas don't work out as well as intended, the willingness to make changes and strive to better your server is what is ultimately keeping our game alive.
Thanks for the insight and support, Ema. I didn't know that CEONSS also went through a period like this, and it was great to know that your playerbase, like ours at the moment it seems, stuck with the server in times of change.

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Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagzilla View Post
Excellent news.

A
Good enough news to get you, Hardspike and Binger to come back? Bonus... we also have 4 new highly active admins on the server.
Seconding this one. It'd be great to have some mappers playing again!
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Old 11-27-2018, 04:26 PM   #27
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Keep in mind that 1 point victories will require a mutator. I found the place where it counts 2 points for a regulation win but I don't know how to make a mutator.
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Old 11-27-2018, 10:32 PM   #28
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I am by no means saying the new scoring system is perfect, but I definitely think it's better than before. Players are staying for full matches and most matches aren't going any longer than 30 minutes. The main downsides I see to the current scoring is a team sandbagging to avoid a quick 2 point win and some maps ending a bit too quickly. The latter issue doesn't seem to be happening very often though.

I could potentially see going to scoring only one point per round regardless of regulation or overtime, with 2 points for a match win. IF we went that route, then I'd say nix the mulligan. With that scoring and the mulligan on, you could potentially end up playing the same map four rounds in a row, back again to marathon matches.

With this the current scoring, I think it would be a good idea to reduce the speed at which the core drains. I know the drain was increased before because of how long the matches were taking. The mulligan is nice to have with the balancer in play... if the balancer does a crappy job the first round and a strong team quickly wins, it seems to be doing a decent job of re-shuffling the teams for a more even match.
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:00 PM   #29
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I want to be clear that I'm not pushing to scrap the new system and use the DW scoring. I'm just stating my preference. I think any changes to the server need to be given a chance and should be left on long enough for good testing and feed-back and fine-tuning. I know though from the different servers I've played on with different scoring systems and just my years of experience with this game that even though I haven't tried the new system it's very unlikely that I would prefer it to the DW scoring. Also, in case it has been forgotten, this server did have the Mulligan mutator running for awhile (I forget how long that lasted).

Edit: And I'm glad you finally started joining us in the forum conversations Chum.
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailbox View Post
* Old System
- Score Limit: 3
no Mulligan
10 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
* Fri-Sat-Mon trial system
- Score Limit: 2
8 minute Mulligan timer
10 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
* "DW System" + mulligan
- Score Limit: 2
5 minute Mulligan timer
10 minute regulation time
1 points for regulation win
* Goose proposal
- Score Limit: 3
no Mulligan
2 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
reduced overtime core drain
This would probably be just an opinion poll.

I think what might help to make a decision is to consider what your ideal match length would be. As an example, on CEONSS we are typically aiming for 15-20 mins, so we will manage to play around 3-4 maps per hour. Your crowd seems more like the type who enjoys an epic showdown. At the same time, that brings the problem of how to keep players engaged, so how long should a match ideally be? 30 mins? 40 mins? 1 hour?


Let's look at the options that you have provided and go through the quickest and slowest scenario for each. For simplicity's sake, I will go with 5 mins minimum to win a round and 10 mins overtime.


(Feel free to calculate it yourself using your own numbers to get an idea of the ranges in total match time.)



* Old System
- Score Limit: 3
no Mulligan
10 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
Quickest: Two rounds of a handful of minutes each. Let's say both only take 5 minutes, so 10 mins on one map.
Slowest: The match could end 3-2. All five rounds going into overtime, with cores draining almost at equal speed. Could be 100 mins on one map (5x10 mins regular time + 5x10 mins overtime).
Difference between quickest and slowest scenario: 90 mins

* Fri-Sat-Mon trial system
- Score Limit: 2
8 minute Mulligan timer
10 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
Quickest: Around 9 minutes, just after the Mulligan is over.
Slowest: The match could end 2-1. One mulligan and three rounds going into overtime. Let's say around 67 mins total (7 mins Mulligan + 3x10 mins regular time + 3x10 mins overtime).
Difference: 58 mins

* "DW System" + mulligan
- Score Limit: 2
5 minute Mulligan timer
10 minute regulation time
1 points for regulation win
Quickest: Around 11 mins (first round going just past the Mulligan and the second round ending after 5 mins).
Slowest: The match would end 2-1. One mulligan and three rounds going into overtime. Around 64 mins (4 mins Mulligan + 3x10 mins regular time + 3x10 mins overtime).
Difference: 53 mins

* Goose proposal
- Score Limit: 3
no Mulligan
2 minute regulation time
2 points for regulation win
reduced overtime core drain
Okay, I will assume that overtime will be 15 minutes long for this.
Quickest: Since I will assume that your balance isn't so bad that a team can win within 2 minutes, the quickest match would be something like 15 mins in total. I mean...in theory the map could be over in less than 4 minutes, but who wins two rounds in 2 minutes?
Slowest: The match could end 3-2. 5x2 mins regular time + 5x 15 mins overtime. Around 85 mins total.
Difference: 70 mins




Alright, so with these rough estimates...

The Old System would provide the greatest range in how long a map can take. It provides the longest matches by far.

The current Trial System would provide the shortest matches.

The DW System + Mulligan would provide the most stable standard duration (the smallest range in how long a map can take) and the shortest longest match scenario. There is still quite a range in possible match duration here.

The "Goose System" would provided the longest duration for short matches (because pretty much all of your rounds would go into overtime).
As a side note, players who join the match later may get discouraged at seeing the cores already damaged and draining, in particular if they would need to take a lot of nodes quickly in order to turn the tide.

I think if you want to shorten your matches a little, it will come down to the Trial System or the DW + Mulligan system.
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:40 PM   #31
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Quote:
10 mins overtime

That seems high to me. Seems like OT doesn't last 10 mins...



Hmm default (per the Interwebz)
OvertimeCoreDrainPerSec=20 The amount of health taken from each core every second during overtime (What's our value?)

But the Core has IIRC 5000 health, so 5000/20 = 250 sec or ~4.2 minutes by default. (Core health can change by map apparently too).
Hmm wait though that depends on the nodes as well..so I guess that's the fastest default (your team has zero nodes because you took the mino to the bridge instead of the dognuts spot)



The more I think about reduced core drain speed in OT the more I like it. Say it twice as slow as default ... eg 8 minutes...yes stalemate maps last longer, but also more incentive for a losing team to push hard and try for (maybe desperate) core hits (ala Tanks-Alot Style...which works on that map because its small). Longer OT would let a team push back and being down say 40-60 isn't insurmountable, especially if nodes are close.
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:44 PM   #32
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The original reason for speeding up the core drain was to speed up the ling matches, soI think we should just set core drain back to default. That would be much slower than it is now, and the new match scoring takes care of making matches quicker.

I think CEONSS has it draining waaaay slower than default. May be why Eman said 10 minutes. And you're correct Pooty, the more nodes your team controls the faster the enemy core drains.
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:51 AM   #33
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Yeah, I posted and then I realized that I don't know if your core drain and ours are set to the same speed. But it was almost 1am at that point, so I left it at that.


I can run the numbers again with 5, or whatever you feel is more suitable. I was assuming that both cores are draining almost at an equal speed for the slowest scenario, but it is somewhat unlikely that this would occur for every single round. Most matches will fall somewhere between the slowest and the fastest scenario. I think it's still useful to take a look at the two extremes to see if/how you want to make adjustments.


Quote:
May be why Eman said 10 minutes.
No "n" please.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:22 PM   #34
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Mailbox, don't know if some changes are already in motion (please feel free to chime in), but here's some hard numbers and general observations I've made and heard while playing under the new scoring...

Most seem to like it overall with more maps being played per hour, but some matches are really short but not a lot though. Here are the hard numbers as gathered from the UT/Epic Stats page:

Sun, Dec 02 - Avg. Match Length: 22.27 min.
Sat, Dec 01 - Avg. Match Length: 23.27 min.
Fri, Nov 30 - Avg. Match Length: 21.39 min.
Thu, Nov 29 - Avg. Match Length: 22.39 min.
Wed, Nov 28 - Avg. Match Length: 19.53 min.

I excluded Fast and Furious maps from the averages, but you can see the average match is consistently around 22 minutes. I'm personally OK with this, but I think a lot of players feel that's too short, especially since they were used to matches that were 3-4 times as long. And when I said just some matches are really short, it's around 20% of matches that are done in under 12 minutes. On the other end, about 43% of matches are over 25 minutes long.

The suggestions I'm hearing and think are worth considering:
1. Change scoring to one point per round, regardless of regulation or overtime, with 2 points for match win. This guarantees at least 2 rounds of play, will likely extend matches 5-10 minutes.

2. Change the overtime core drain back to default... the whole point of speeding it up originally was to shorten matches. Now, it just exacerbates how short the matches already are, with not enough time to come back in OT.

3. Increase the map rotation cool-down (THIS SHOULD BE PRIORITY!!!)... right now it's something like 12. Unfortunately this is causing the same "favorites" being repeatedly played in much faster succession. Of the 132 matches I looked at, 22 were some variation of Minus, 16 some variation of JunkYard, 10 TAL, 9 Dria, 6 Nevermore, 6 AlienHop, 6 RedPlanet, and 5 MB. Considering all Minus versions as pretty much the same map, same for JunkYard, that's only 8 different maps making up 60% of maps played over 5 days.

I don't know what the magic number is for increasing the map cool-down, but it should probably go to at least 20 or 25, and soon. There are a lot of good maps not getting played on this server. The tank campers (which is most players now unfortunately) will just keep voting these same maps over and over, now they just get to do it faster, making the rotation feel even more repetitive.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:03 PM   #35
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The still working EpicStatsPage. Thank Flak that she managed it to move the task about deleting everything out of the sight of the headquaters a while longer and even get one of her guys to fix it before.


When you have 132 maps I suggest 130 as rotation .. that way Rail and Halloween (btw Carpe edited that map for you guys) will see the light of the day. On the other hand would you kill the server with that in one night.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Miauz55555 View Post
The still working EpicStatsPage. Thank Flak that she managed it to move the task about deleting everything out of the sight of the headquaters a while longer and even get one of her guys to fix it before.


When you have 132 maps I suggest 130 as rotation .. that way Rail and Halloween (btw Carpe edited that map for you guys) will see the light of the day. On the other hand would you kill the server with that in one night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo
3. Increase the map rotation cool-down (THIS SHOULD BE PRIORITY!!!)... right now it's something like 12. Unfortunately this is causing the same "favorites" being repeatedly played in much faster succession. Of the 132 matches I looked at, 22 were some variation of Minus, 16 some variation of JunkYard, 10 TAL, 9 Dria, 6 Nevermore, 6 AlienHop, 6 RedPlanet, and 5 MB. Considering all Minus versions as pretty much the same map, same for JunkYard, that's only 8 different maps making up 60% of maps played over 5 days.

I don't know what the magic number is for increasing the map cool-down, but it should probably go to at least 20 or 25, and soon. There are a lot of good maps not getting played on this server. The tank campers (which is most players now unfortunately) will just keep voting these same maps over and over, now they just get to do it faster, making the rotation feel even more repetitive.
Not a fan of increasing map cool-down rotation time-outs. Ever notice how the server empties when an unpopular map is voted in. You may get more unique maps in play, but you might also have a ghost-town without any players left.
Something to consider...
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:28 PM   #37
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Not a fan of increasing map cool-down rotation time-outs. Ever notice how the server empties when an unpopular map is voted in. You may get more unique maps in play, but you might also have a ghost-town without any players left.
Something to consider...
I'm not suggesting increasing it radically like Miauz suggested, but increasing it to something like 20 would keep us from playing 4 or 5 minus maps in a 2 hour period. Sure, any crappy/unpopular map will empty the server, but most maps I don't think have that effect. People aren't suddenly going to start voting Hoover en masse because the cool-down goes up by 8 or 10.

There are a lot of maps that regulars here like to play that don't get as much play as Dria/Minus/Junk because we have so many of the non-skilled/non-motivated players that like to sit back in tanks and spam shit. The other side of your argument could be that you have a lot of people leave because back to back to back Minus and Junk maps get voted in... I've seen that happen a lot too.

I'd personally rather play with 12-16 decent to good players on a map like Slated and have a better (more fun) match than have a full server with a bunch of Stormers and Ku type players on 3 minus maps in a row.
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Old 12-03-2018, 09:12 PM   #38
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I'll echo what McLovin said, a longer map rotation will empty the server out more often (or at least reduce to 3-4 per side). Sometimes where we are in the rotation will decide whether to stick around for another match or bail. (If none of the "good" maps won't be available for 3-4 matches).

Unfortunately, with all the maps in the list, I don't remember what some of the lesser played maps are, and I'm not willing to risk voting for a "bad" map, so stick with the familiar ones. Plus, sometimes I'm not in the mood to learn a new map (paths to nodes, vehicle types & locations, etc.) and it's just easier to relax and play the familiar.
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Old 12-03-2018, 09:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Miauz55555 View Post
(btw Carpe edited that map for you guys)

Really? Carpe can edit maps.
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Old 12-03-2018, 10:50 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
Mailbox, don't know if some changes are already in motion (please feel free to chime in), but here's some hard numbers and general observations I've made and heard while playing under the new scoring...

Most seem to like it overall with more maps being played per hour, but some matches are really short but not a lot though. Here are the hard numbers as gathered from the UT/Epic Stats page:

Sun, Dec 02 - Avg. Match Length: 22.27 min.
Sat, Dec 01 - Avg. Match Length: 23.27 min.
Fri, Nov 30 - Avg. Match Length: 21.39 min.
Thu, Nov 29 - Avg. Match Length: 22.39 min.
Wed, Nov 28 - Avg. Match Length: 19.53 min.

I excluded Fast and Furious maps from the averages, but you can see the average match is consistently around 22 minutes. I'm personally OK with this, but I think a lot of players feel that's too short, especially since they were used to matches that were 3-4 times as long. And when I said just some matches are really short, it's around 20% of matches that are done in under 12 minutes. On the other end, about 43% of matches are over 25 minutes long.

The suggestions I'm hearing and think are worth considering:
1. Change scoring to one point per round, regardless of regulation or overtime, with 2 points for match win. This guarantees at least 2 rounds of play, will likely extend matches 5-10 minutes.

2. Change the overtime core drain back to default... the whole point of speeding it up originally was to shorten matches. Now, it just exacerbates how short the matches already are, with not enough time to come back in OT.

3. Increase the map rotation cool-down (THIS SHOULD BE PRIORITY!!!)... right now it's something like 12. Unfortunately this is causing the same "favorites" being repeatedly played in much faster succession. Of the 132 matches I looked at, 22 were some variation of Minus, 16 some variation of JunkYard, 10 TAL, 9 Dria, 6 Nevermore, 6 AlienHop, 6 RedPlanet, and 5 MB. Considering all Minus versions as pretty much the same map, same for JunkYard, that's only 8 different maps making up 60% of maps played over 5 days.

I don't know what the magic number is for increasing the map cool-down, but it should probably go to at least 20 or 25, and soon. There are a lot of good maps not getting played on this server. The tank campers (which is most players now unfortunately) will just keep voting these same maps over and over, now they just get to do it faster, making the rotation feel even more repetitive.
I generally agree with this. While I like the changes made, I think the rounds have been a little too short. It sort of makes it seem like fate (team selection) decides which team wins rather than the one who will put up a longer fight, communicate, etc. There's not enough time to get settled into your team, it feels. Points #1 and #2 I'm definitely in favor of.

Also, perhaps get rid of some of the copy maps? I like having two versions of TAL, but I also wouldn't miss MinusNightwolf...

Also, delete all versions of Torlan except Demo Torlan.
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