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Old 11-22-2018, 06:53 PM   #1
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Default [UN][REVERTED] Fall 2018 Match Scoring Changes
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Hi everyone,

Pending changes from Carpe, OMNI will be changing its scoring system for the first time in years. The changes are listed below, with unmentioned stats remaining the same:

* Score limit lowered from 3 to 2
* Mulligan round system now in effect, where destroying the core within a period before overtime of the first round will now have the teams scrambled and the first round score ignored. EDIT: Not yet in effect

This reduces the overall maximum round count from 5 to 4, and the minimum round count from 2 to 1. This change is being done to eliminate 70+ minute Dria-TMU and junkyard slogs, as well as to increase the speed of map rotations, which will hopefully incentivize people to play more unfamiliar maps.

We will keep the rules up for a week, and if there is discontent over the issue, a poll will be had to revert the change.

Thanks for continuing to play at OMNI, and happy thanksgiving!

EDIT: Following negative reception, Black Friday's scoring changes have been reverted with immediate effect.

EDIT 2: With the mulligan back in place, the program's back in business.

Last edited by Mailbox; 11-24-2018 at 03:38 PM..
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Old 11-22-2018, 07:43 PM   #2
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That's a remarkable, bold move, Mailbox & Omni!

There's data to suggest matches ranging between 1.7 and 3.7 rounds (assuming OTs and a 7 minute "mulligan") and averaging 35 minutes in duration (2.7*13m) will likely result in fewer mid-match dropouts, more balanced teams after a match's score reset (solves the issue of post-start arrivals' PPH not being factored in), more maps per ~2hr session and players being more willing to "experiment" with their voting. Here's hoping these expectations get confirmed and the change improves ingame experience for the entire Omni community.

There's always the usual murmurs about the game being too old to bother and such to be found around ONS communities on both sides of the pond, but the best way to buck that trend is simply by caring to roll up your sleeves and do some work on whatever chronic issues there may still remain. Breaking with tradition to try out a new approach isn't an easy thing in itself either, so congrats to all involved!
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:10 PM   #3
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Done. *dusts off hands*


Hoping this doesn't need a server restart. If it isn't working let me know and I'll do so.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:22 PM   #4
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Thanks Carpe!

I don't know if you've flipped the switch to activate the mulligans yet, though. I never specified a time, but 7 minutes doesn't sound bad.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:29 PM   #5
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Cool. Been needed for a long time. We got about 20 minutes shaved off a while back but some matches were still way too long (Not sure what you mean by 70 minutes on Dria. Max on that was at one time about 78 minutes but it should have been right about 58 recently. Still too long, imo).

So what is the Mulligan time? I rarely play so I'll try not to complain but anything over a minute or two I think would be weird. (you posted while I was writing this. 7 minutes??? I guess I'll have to keep my mouth shut on this. Lol, like that will happen)

Maybe overtime drain could be increased so it means something again [Edit: I meant longer OT so decreased drain]. It landed in a weird place after the last changes. It wasn't long enough to turn things around and was just kind of there as a token OT. Goose had an interesting idea...

http://forum.omnipotents.com/showpos...1&postcount=75

I would still like to see the DW system put on this server but I'm guessing this will be an improvement over the current system. Good job Mailbox and anyone else that pushed for this and thank you Carpe for working with the community.

Last edited by Binger; 11-23-2018 at 04:37 PM..
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:40 PM   #6
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So what is the Mulligan time? I rarely play so I'll try not to complain but anything over a minute or two I think would be weird. (you posted while I was writing this. 7 minutes??? I guess I'll have to keep my mouth shut on this. Lol, like that will happen)
It's the upper threshold on the reset timer for the first round if a core goes boom. CEONSS has a 5 minute mulligan timer, if I recall correctly. That could work too. I'm just a bit afraid that people won't be receptive of maps being over after one round, hence a longer mulligan time.


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Just wanted to say I had an interesting idea for this a while back....

1) Set score limit to 3
2) Set round time limit to 1 min
3) Reduce OT damage considerably

This way every round is worth 1 point, and node control is actually meaningful to the outcome of the game again (one of the banes of the current meta is node control is practically meaningless especially in typical stalemate maps like Dria).

Only a handful of maps would need to be fixed for this (those with the low health cores).

Just a thought...
I do agree that node control really doesn't matter the way it used to in the past. At the same time, 1 minute is terribly short, and could really punish slow rollouts. I don't mind experimenting a bit, although I'd like to keep the current scoring system for at least a couple of weeks before we pivot again.
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Old 11-23-2018, 04:35 PM   #7
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It's the upper threshold on the reset timer for the first round if a core goes boom. CEONSS has a 5 minute mulligan timer, if I recall correctly. That could work too. I'm just a bit afraid that people won't be receptive of maps being over after one round, hence a longer mulligan time.

I know what it is (bad wording on my part) I was just wondering what the time was set to. I was being stupid though about it being short because I wasn't considering the possibility of just one round. 1 or 2 minutes wouldn't work well. No one wants to see their favorite map end in 2 minutes. Another point for the DW style, imho. Folks just need to learn to live without OT and it works great. And I'm against 1 round matches.


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I do agree that node control really doesn't matter the way it used to in the past. At the same time, 1 minute is terribly short, and could really punish slow rollouts. I don't mind experimenting a bit, although I'd like to keep the current scoring system for at least a couple of weeks before we pivot again.

I set my offline settings for short regulation and long OT after he posted that and I like it. It would take some experimenting to get it just right but I like the idea and it works well when I'm playing with bots.


btw, when I said "overtime drain could be increased" I meant the opposite, longer OT.
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Old 11-24-2018, 01:01 AM   #8
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Hi everyone,

Without the mulligan in place, one round maps were happening very often. I was not there for much of prime time, but seeing the all chat at the end of MTMU-R, complete with a "fuck this server", has made me revert the scoring changes made today, with immediate effect. The score reduction without the mulligan in place is too drastic, and once a comprehensive scoring change proposal has been made, it will be proposed with a much longer lead up for feedback.

If I were able to enable the mulligan myself, I would've put it in place, and see how things went. However, I don't, so I instead reverted things back (which I do know how to do). Don't want to risk the health of this server any further over a (literally) half-baked experiment.

Apologies to those the played today and didn't like the changes.

Last edited by Mailbox; 11-24-2018 at 02:00 AM..
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mailbox View Post
Hi everyone,

Without the mulligan in place, one round maps were happening very often. I was not there for much of prime time, but seeing the all chat at the end of MTMU-R, complete with a "fuck this server", has made me revert the scoring changes made today, with immediate effect. The score reduction without the mulligan in place is too drastic, and once a comprehensive scoring change proposal has been made, it will be proposed with a much longer lead up for feedback.

If I were able to enable the mulligan myself, I would've put it in place, and see how things went. However, I don't, so I instead reverted things back (which I do know how to do). Don't want to risk the health of this server any further over a (literally) half-baked experiment.

Apologies to those the played today and didn't like the changes.
Anyone that responds to any changes with a "fuck this server" can bite themselves. And go play at the myriad of other servers available. Oh right...


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Apologies to those the played today and didn't like the changes.
Again, fuck 'em. I don't see them in the forums involved in any kind of discussion about this. So ya, fuck 'em.

Mulligan timer set to 8min.

peace.
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Old 11-24-2018, 01:17 PM   #10
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I was in favor of the 2pt system. Long matches on Dria, Nevermore, JunkYard maps was crazy. Specially in OT with teams going back and forth win, loss win, loss, etc.

True some maps were over in a few minutes. But its a trade off.
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Old 11-24-2018, 01:39 PM   #11
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I didn't have any issue with the changes either. We only gave it a short time. I agree with Carpe. All those bitching and whining who don't contribute anything to the forums can get bent. For the record, I have HUGE respect for the efforts you've (Carpe and Mailbox) have made in trying to create some positive change. It takes initiative and guts to lead. It takes nothing to follow and whine.

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Old 11-25-2018, 12:49 AM   #12
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Everyone seems to like the 2 point win much better with the mulligan turned on. Some were confused about the reset, but they quickly got it after briefly explaining. I asked for opinions after several maps and everyone for the most part seem to like it. It definitely eliminates the marathon matches and lets you get more maps in a shorter time frame.
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Old 11-25-2018, 04:31 PM   #13
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Excellent news.

A
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:59 PM   #14
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Excellent news.

A
Good enough news to get you, Hardspike and Binger to come back? Bonus... we also have 4 new highly active admins on the server.
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Old 11-26-2018, 08:33 AM   #15
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Overall I like the changes. Love the faster map rotation.


A couple of observations/suggestions:



1. Mulligan time in some cases is too long. We played the other day, and steadily moved across the map...not a complete domination, there was some back and forth, but eventually won it after ~6-7 minutes and got reset. How long is a match? 15 minutes? On larger maps 8 mins is fine, on smaller maps, its way too long. Maybe move it to 6 mins?


2. I suggest changing the scoring even further to 1 pt for a win regardless of OT. The thought behind this is we had a match (TMU-Randomizer) where we did get the 2pt win in regulation, not a mulligan and boom...match over. There was some discontent after a 1 round match. So I guess it does remove the incentive to kill the core before OT, but seems like we don't want 1 round matches either. I think DW uses 2 pt matches with 1 pt for a win regardless. At most you'd get 3 round matches (and really who misses 5 rounds of dria? or JY?) but if you get blown out in 1 rd you at least have a chance.



I realize that maybe 1 here kind of offsets 2, meaning the 1 rd 2pt wins are rare with the mulligan as is, but with 2pt / 1 round match, there's no "rematch" round. I always found it fun when you lost the first and then some other players join and the tables get turned.


Overall, these are very minor complaints and the changes, IMO, are much better and thanks to all for getting them in place.
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Old 11-26-2018, 12:53 PM   #16
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I'm liking the changes.

Question: When you get rebalanced after a mulligan to the opposing team, do you have to reset your chat to your current team?

Observation: To avoid a mulligan, I'm suspecting a bit of sand-bagging might take place to avoid a win too quickly.

Question: What's the time difference between a 2 point 1st round win and a mulligan trigger?
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailbox View Post
It's the upper threshold on the reset timer for the first round if a core goes boom. CEONSS has a 5 minute mulligan timer, if I recall correctly. That could work too. I'm just a bit afraid that people won't be receptive of maps being over after one round, hence a longer mulligan time.
We have it set to 7 mins. Also, it can be adjusted in the WebAdmin (provided you have access to the "Team Balance" tab).


I think this is a bold change, but I'm sure peeps will see it in a more positive light once they have gotten more used to it. Don't let yourself get discouraged by the negative comments! I know there is a lot of fear around "changing a running system", but this will be a breath of fresh air as well. I remember that we had times when we tried out several voting types on CEONSS before settling on one. It didn't scare our players off. Even if all of your new ideas don't work out as well as intended, the willingness to make changes and strive to better your server is what is ultimately keeping our game alive.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {glr}pooty View Post
Overall I like the changes. Love the faster map rotation.


A couple of observations/suggestions:



1. Mulligan time in some cases is too long. We played the other day, and steadily moved across the map...not a complete domination, there was some back and forth, but eventually won it after ~6-7 minutes and got reset. How long is a match? 15 minutes? On larger maps 8 mins is fine, on smaller maps, its way too long. Maybe move it to 6 mins?


2. I suggest changing the scoring even further to 1 pt for a win regardless of OT. The thought behind this is we had a match (TMU-Randomizer) where we did get the 2pt win in regulation, not a mulligan and boom...match over. There was some discontent after a 1 round match. So I guess it does remove the incentive to kill the core before OT, but seems like we don't want 1 round matches either. I think DW uses 2 pt matches with 1 pt for a win regardless. At most you'd get 3 round matches (and really who misses 5 rounds of dria? or JY?) but if you get blown out in 1 rd you at least have a chance.



I realize that maybe 1 here kind of offsets 2, meaning the 1 rd 2pt wins are rare with the mulligan as is, but with 2pt / 1 round match, there's no "rematch" round. I always found it fun when you lost the first and then some other players join and the tables get turned.


Overall, these are very minor complaints and the changes, IMO, are much better and thanks to all for getting them in place.

Well said. Good points here.


I'm happy for the change cause something needed to happen but I would much rather see the DW scoring. I think I've mentioned that before. A simple 2 out of 3 is, for me, the closest thing to perfect the scoring system for this game will ever get.



Quote:
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...
Observation: To avoid a mulligan, I'm suspecting a bit of sand-bagging might take place to avoid a win too quickly....

I can see how this might be a problem.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:32 PM   #19
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Matches that only last one round and conclude with a 2-point RT victory, within the slim "post-mulligan, pre-OT" window (so in this case, between 7 and 10 minutes), are a legitimate concern, especially for the player group that approaches the philosophical question of what should be the cardinal priority in deciding the GoalScore and the use of related settings and mods with the response, "whatever prevents us from having 1 round, drive-by matches, wasting a map."
This group's concern is usually in natural opposition to its counterpart, which prioritizes a server configuration that avoids generating tiresome, 5-round, hour-(plus)-long marathons with daily consistency, and it is a balance between these competing ideologies that the admins of any ONS[Plus] server are called to figure out.

To my mind, solving this problem shouldn't be about deciding which viewpoint is more legitimate - IMO, they both are - since any action taken as a result of such deliberation between admins is always liable to leave one side feeling unappreciated and disenfranchised, thus potentially fracturing the server. Instead, by making a temporary change and following that up with the necessary number crunching to figure out how often each side's bigger concerns actually recur, then presenting those stats to the community in factual, numeric fashion, one can pour some cold water over the passionate debate and examine the problem in a more productive manner.
In that sense, I'll be eager to see how the performance of this change is tracked and measured over the following weeks (e.g. in terms of mulligan matches vs. total amount of legit/over-12p matches, frequency of RT victories *after* a mulligan, percentage of 1-round matches vs. total legit matches, avg. number of matches per 2-hour session, etc.), and what corrective actions, if any, it might lead to - there's interesting stuff to be learned there, and, of course, room for further tweaking, if, say, 7 minutes proves to not be the optimal cut-off point for Omni!

There's one last caveat I'd like to make to Omni players concerned about this change, regarding a more general point I've mentioned elsewhere. Although able to help, the EvenMatch and mulligan combo is only a technical means through which the admins are trying to tackle a matter that, as described above, is largely a social one. Since you can't program humans to not break rules, on a fundamental level this can never be a perfect solution on its own, and it's inevitable that people will try to find ways to game the new system in order to either delegitimize the reform attempt or just for the short-sighted gain of skipping a map they don't like, disregarding the frustration that'll cause to others; the narrow window to do so is there.

All the above is the long way of saying that the only way to effectively defend against McLovin's pessimistic (but realistic) prediction is if the community, as a whole, decides to own and embrace the change by treating it as a server institution to be respected rather than merely as another technical layer or tweak throughout its experimental phase, thus giving it a fighting chance against bad actors visibly coordinating to screw with it.
The only ones that can act as a safeguard to the mulligan working as intended (to whatever degree that ends up helping) are those it affects ingame, players and admins alike. So, if you're truly interested in helping your server improve, you may want to consider being a bit more proactive that way n' going above and beyond the usual "call of duty" for the immediate future to ensure this trial produces useful data.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:06 PM   #20
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Well said. Good points here.


I'm happy for the change cause something needed to happen but I would much rather see the DW scoring. I think I've mentioned that before. A simple 2 out of 3 is, for me, the closest thing to perfect the scoring system for this game will ever get.






I can see how this might be a problem.
I agree Binger. Army raised the same point with me last night. Most people are going to be ok with the changes but going to a maximum of one point per win regardless of OT or not will allow for a minimum of two rounds of each map. I think that's probably the sweet spot. If a team gets two points just over the mulligan time then the map is over in only one round. It doesn't allow for the possibility of "head up ass" syndrome occurring with the losing team. Things could turn around in the second round. I'm really happy with the new changes but one point per win would make it as close to perfect and more widely accepted as possible.

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