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Old 09-07-2007, 02:47 PM   #1
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Default MagicIsle V5 removed from server...
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And replaced with MagicIsle V5 RC1.

Has Phoenix's in place of Raptors. Cicada at core replaced with Dragon and a few Badgers added in as well.

VileFront was being a pig today, so I couldn't upload the map... until then just get it off the redirect.. I'll add in the link once I get it there.

[edit] FileFront finally worked... here is the link...

http://files.filefront.com/ONS+Magic.../fileinfo.html

Solace will be along shortly to give more information, particularly on the Dragon. It can be deadly when used properly, but like the Kraken.. requires teamwork.

Thanks to Solace for all his effort and work.. muchly appreciated. Also thanks to The Wrecking Crew (Daeryn, WMD40 and 337) for all their work and efforts testing the map.

peace,

Carpe

p.s. TrueTrojan will be skinning the Phoenixii and Dragon for us.. once he is done it will become V6.
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:49 PM   #2
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First off, both the Pheonix and Dragon take half damage from a Shock Rifle, but half more from an Avril. This means you won't get pwned by one dude with a shock rifle as easily, but watch out, as a single Avril will one-hit the Phoenix and drop the Dragon's health by more than half; so when you hear a lock on message head for the hills! Fortunately, the Dragon will survive one hit with an Avril, and the Phoenix can take it down with an alt-fire if you time it perfectly.

The Phoenix handles just like a Raptor, has 250 health, and it's primary is just slightly weaker than a Raptor; but being hitscan, you can actually hit stuff with it. It's alt is a burst attack that deals massive damage to everything around it... in a fairly small radius. So, you have to balance the extra damage with the fact you've only got at most 250 health and have to be right next to something to hurt it. However, at 300 damage/3 seconds, it can one-hit other Phoenixes, as well as Mantas and Scorpions, as well as being great against infantry and just to get down undefended nodes quickly. On the other hand, you need to park a vehicle with 250 health next to something for it to work, so it takes some strategy/luck.

The Dragon handles like a Raptor with much less acceleration... since it's basically a flying tank. Its primary is a hitscan lazer that deals 100 damage/second, almost as strong as a goliath... without the splash damage. The alt drops a bomb that's pretty hard to aim, and only drops down... but deals 500+ damage with a huge radius, every 4 seconds. The Dragon has two passengers, each with a flak-minigun that deals 10 damage every tenth of a second, and an alt that's a weak (75 damage) tank shell every second. Passengers are rather useful for the Dragon; not only are their primaries fairly useful, but the secondaries are key in getting rid of infantry, which is otherwise the bane of the Dragon. Lastly, the Dragon won't last long in a direct firefight, so you've got to think strategically while using it... but with the power of a tank and the top speed of a Raptor, it's hardly a weak vehicle.

EDIT: My post seems to have been cut in half... I'll try to fix it while my connection holds. x.x
- There we go, more or less. Anyway, some stuff cropped up in the one game I got to play of this... first off, when using the Dragon, the angle you can attack has a lot to do with how your Dragon's rotated... meaning, forward you can only shoot diagonally down, hovering you can shoot forward, and backwards you can shoot diagonally up. So, if you're in a firefight, pull back a bit (you'll probably want to look for cover early anyway, with the Dragon's acceleration).

Second, Big_Al suggested replacing some of the less useful vehicles in the Cores with Badgers... any opinions on that? I'm thinking the Ageis and Assault 'bender, since I rarely if ever see them used.
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Old 09-08-2007, 03:45 AM   #3
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Leave the assault hound, it kicks ass and is leathal if someone bothers to use it. (kills Minos)

Ageis - meh.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:32 AM   #4
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Leave the assault hound, it kicks ass and is leathal if someone bothers to use it. (kills Minos)

Ageis - meh.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:00 AM   #5
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That Aegis at the core is really useful as an attack vehicle, surprisingly. You can drive it right over the hill from the core to the enemy's 3/10 and get rid of any Hellhound campers there.
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Old 09-08-2007, 01:44 PM   #6
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Well, I don't think either of the core 'benders or the Ageis are particularly useful there... but I don't think the map needs 10-12 Badgers either. Honestly, I like it how it is, just throwing it out as a possibility.

Another idea that was kinda a 50/50 effort between me and Mental is a heal pad between 7 and 9... I rather like that idea, gives you a place to heal that doesn't take 5 minutes to trek back to your base for, makes those nodes more important, shows off that very nice but currently kind of useless spot, and gives a non-node area to fight over. It's even got a skylight so it's easily accessible to fliers too, but secluded enough you don't have to worry about being shelled from afar while healing. Thoughts?

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Old 09-08-2007, 01:47 PM   #7
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Well, I don't think either of the core 'benders or the Ageis are particularly useful there... but I don't think the map needs 10-12 Badgers either. Honestly, I like it how it is, just throwing it out as a possibility.
The core benders are critical for defence, especially if some idiot takes the bender from 3/10. You need somewhere else to get them from.
Quote:
Another idea that was kinda a 50/50 effort between me and Mental is a heal pad between 7 and 9... I rather like that idea, gives you a place to heal that doesn't take 5 minutes to trek back to your base for, makes those nodes more important, shows off that very nice but currently kind of useless spot, and gives a non-node area to fight over. It's even got a skylight so it's easily accessible to fliers too, but secluded enough you don't have to worry about being shelled from afar while healing. Thoughts?
I like it! Very nice idea!
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Old 09-08-2007, 02:04 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Second, Big_Al suggested replacing some of the less useful vehicles in the Cores with Badgers... any opinions on that? I'm thinking the Ageis and Assault 'bender, since I rarely if ever see them used.
Good idea, imo. As far as I can tell, the assault bender pretty much just gathers dust throughout the game. And the Aegis only seems to get used if the core is vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Well, I don't think either of the core 'benders or the Ageis are particularly useful there... but I don't think the map needs 10-12 Badgers either. Honestly, I like it how it is, just throwing it out as a possibility.
Maybe remove them from a pair of the other nodes if you do this?


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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Another idea that was kinda a 50/50 effort between me and Mental is a heal pad between 7 and 9... I rather like that idea, gives you a place to heal that doesn't take 5 minutes to trek back to your base for, makes those nodes more important, shows off that very nice but currently kind of useless spot, and gives a non-node area to fight over. It's even got a skylight so it's easily accessible to fliers too, but secluded enough you don't have to worry about being shelled from afar while healing. Thoughts?
Love it!

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The core benders are critical for defence, especially if some idiot takes the bender from 3/10. You need somewhere else to get them from.
About the one with the laser at the #3 position (King Hellhound? I can never keep em straight...), I agree. I like tucking it away on some hill and pestering the flyers . However, like I said above, the Assault bender never really seems to see much use.
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Old 09-08-2007, 02:20 PM   #9
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About the one with the laser at the #3 position (King Hellhound? I can never keep em straight...), I agree. I like tucking it away on some hill and pestering the flyers . However, like I said above, the Assault bender never really seems to see much use.
That's cos it's one of the most underrated vehicles on the map. You obviously have never seen it used by someone who knows what they're doing with it, or you'd be as adamant about it staying on the map. It kicks utter and total ass with it's rear turret. Plant it on top of a hill so tank shells have a hard time hitting it, and watch it destroy Minos in seconds, not quite as fast as Bios kill them, but so what? This is the map that lets it shine the most, so lets keep it here, shall we?


Quick&Dirty guide to the GorzHounds:

Hellhound: Hellbender with everything just... More.

King Hellhound: Driver flak, rear rapid-fire.

Assault Hellhound: Machinegunds and tank shells.

FireHound: Flames, flames and more flames.
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Old 09-08-2007, 02:52 PM   #10
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That's cos it's one of the most underrated vehicles on the map. You obviously have never seen it used by someone who knows what they're doing with it, or you'd be as adamant about it staying on the map. It kicks utter and total ass with it's rear turret. Plant it on top of a hill so tank shells have a hard time hitting it, and watch it destroy Minos in seconds, not quite as fast as Bios kill them, but so what? This is the map that lets it shine the most, so lets keep it here, shall we?
I just timed it... it took 19 seconds to kill a Mino with the assault 'bender's rear turret at point blank range. 2000/19 = 105 damage per second... not bad, but not great. I'm not saying it's useless, but I just don't see it as being as uber as you say.

EDIT: Just tried with a Badger, and the Badger's machine gun takes 13 seconds, far better than the Assault 'bender.

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Maybe remove them from a pair of the other nodes if you do this?
Nah, they're good there... I stuck 'em on the nodes that're generally overlooked, so people will go after them more. Besides, the cores already have 14 vehicles and a total of... 28 seats? Do we really need more?
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Old 09-08-2007, 03:22 PM   #11
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I never got to try the Phoenix and Dragon. They sound pretty cool by the description.
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Old 09-08-2007, 03:30 PM   #12
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Well, I don't think either of the core 'benders or the Ageis are particularly useful there... but I don't think the map needs 10-12 Badgers either. Honestly, I like it how it is, just throwing it out as a possibility.

Another idea that was kinda a 50/50 effort between me and Mental is a heal pad between 7 and 9... I rather like that idea, gives you a place to heal that doesn't take 5 minutes to trek back to your base for, makes those nodes more important, shows off that very nice but currently kind of useless spot, and gives a non-node area to fight over. It's even got a skylight so it's easily accessible to fliers too, but secluded enough you don't have to worry about being shelled from afar while healing. Thoughts?
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9446/healpad1wu6.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8107/healpad2az4.jpg
I know where I'm parking the Kraken.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:03 PM   #13
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I know where I'm parking the Kraken.
Multi-turreted vehicles not allowed. This version of MI will also include a large tow-truck with impound lots behind nodes 5/8.
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:17 PM   #14
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Oh yes, park your Kraken right next to where Bios spawn and where it can't attack anything.

Anyway, some people have been saying that the air in this version is overpowered, even going so far as to say you can solo a Kraken in a Phoenix... and I'd like to stress the fact that Pheonixes actually only do about 62% the damage/second that Raptors do with their primaries, and I somehow doubt that the single Dragon has more of an impact that two Minos and a Kraken. If the air's been overpowered in the last few maps, there's only two factors that might cause it:
1. The Phoenix and Dragon are new, so everyone wants to try them. If all 14 fliers are in the air, of course you're going to see them more often.
2. Because the fliers don't have to chase eachother around for 30 seconds to a minute to get a kill, the survivors will have more time to gun for tanks.
Anyway, just remember that a Hellhound or Avril kills Phoenixes in one hit, and the Kraken, Minos, Fire Tanks, and Bios all have effective anti-air guns. Oh, and one person mentioned how much damage the Phoenix takes when it hits a wall- turns out Raptors take that much too, but the 50 less life at startup means one solid crash takes you down into the upper 100's, which is more noticeable.

Also, in case anyone's still having trouble hitting stuff with the Dragon's first seat's primary- remember what you have to do to hit stuff with the HammerHead? Same thing applies here, although not as harshly.

Last, fixed the issue with the Dragon's third seat not showing up all nice and pretty on the driver's HUD. Of course, that won't be online until we're ready for V6 officially (which will involve a few other changes as well, plus the heal pad). Any other small changes people suggest might be in there too.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:20 PM   #15
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Why 1 shot kill a Phoenix with an Avril? Why cripple someone good with a Shock?
It makes no sense, so the guy who can actually shoot something worth a dam is put at a disadvantage while a guy who just points his cursor over can 1 shot kill you?
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:39 PM   #16
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Few reasons. First off, Shock Rifles are generally overpowered and swat down anything from the sky easily. Fragile aircraft being able to shrug off a hit from a gigantic anti-vehicular rocket launcher never made sense to me either. But, from a gameplay point of view, I made the Phoenix's beams not come together to a point, so while the Shock Rifle wielding infantry does half damage to the Phoenix, only (up to) half the Phoenix's beams will be hitting the infantry; meaning both are equally nerfed. Plus, especially on hilly levels like Isle, you can just duck behind something when you hear a lock on and avoid an Avril altogether. Basically... Shock Rifles are the most popular gun and Avrils are generally ignored, and I wanted to change that up, especially since Avris are supposed to be the anti-vehicle weapon anyway. However, if it makes you feel any better... while Avrils will technically do 300 damage to a Phoenix, if the Phoenix is moving away the Avril seems to deal damage shortly after exploding, meaning that the Phoenix takes reduced radius damage instead of the full 300 and often survives.

If a Phoenix wants to fight someone on foot, at long range it'll probably lose to a shock rifle (due to the beams not focusing and not having splash damage like the Raptor's primary, as well as doing less damage than a Raptor does), but be able to duck behind things to avoid Avrils. Close range it can quickly end the fight with an alt-fire burst, but becomes vulnerable to Avrils.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:57 PM   #17
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Alright, It just didn't make sense to me really...
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:03 PM   #18
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Admittedly, it'd be a problem in an open level like Dria... >.> But most flier-heavy maps seem to have enough to duck behind to make Avrils hard to connect. I can change it if enough people want, it's just that I'm killed far more often by beams than Avrils.

- Incidentally, Avrils get destroyed if damaged... and the Phoenix's alt deals damage to everything around it in a radius. Something to think about. Admittedly I haven't been able to try it with bots, but it should work...

EDIT: Actually... since Dragons die too easily, can't hide behind cover well, and don't have any defenses against Avrils... actually, they just die too easily period. Thinking of dropping the weakness to Avrils in Dragons and also upping their health by a hundred points. Since Phoenixes can actually dogfight and have time to attack tanks and whatnot I think a weakness like that isn't a bad thing, but Dragons just don't last long against anything... which is especially bad in a three-man vehicle. So, thoughts on that?

Also, how about putting a keg 'o health and big shield pack in that little room, by the heal pad? Make it like a tiny little death arena, with all the health-goodies in there. For that matter, is there/should there be remmers in the map?
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:16 PM   #19
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That's cos it's one of the most underrated vehicles on the map. You obviously have never seen it used by someone who knows what they're doing with it, or you'd be as adamant about it staying on the map. It kicks utter and total ass with it's rear turret. Plant it on top of a hill so tank shells have a hard time hitting it, and watch it destroy Minos in seconds, not quite as fast as Bios kill them, but so what? This is the map that lets it shine the most, so lets keep it here, shall we?
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I just timed it... it took 19 seconds to kill a Mino with the assault 'bender's rear turret at point blank range. 2000/19 = 105 damage per second... not bad, but not great. I'm not saying it's useless, but I just don't see it as being as uber as you say.
I agree with Solace here. The assault bender is nice, but not that nice. Regardless, it is one of the least used vehicles on the map (at least so far as I've noticed).

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Anyway, some people have been saying that the air in this version is overpowered, even going so far as to say you can solo a Kraken in a Phoenix... and I'd like to stress the fact that Pheonixes actually only do about 62% the damage/second that Raptors do with their primaries, and I somehow doubt that the single Dragon has more of an impact that two Minos and a Kraken. If the air's been overpowered in the last few maps, there's only two factors that might cause it:
1. The Phoenix and Dragon are new, so everyone wants to try them. If all 14 fliers are in the air, of course you're going to see them more often.
2. Because the fliers don't have to chase eachother around for 30 seconds to a minute to get a kill, the survivors will have more time to gun for tanks.
Anyway, just remember that a Hellhound or Avril kills Phoenixes in one hit, and the Kraken, Minos, Fire Tanks, and Bios all have effective anti-air guns. Oh, and one person mentioned how much damage the Phoenix takes when it hits a wall- turns out Raptors take that much too, but the 50 less life at startup means one solid crash takes you down into the upper 100's, which is more noticeable.
Air is by no means over powered here. Magic's always been somewhat heavier with the air than most other maps but you've got the benders, mino's bio tanks, flame tanks, and krakens all with turrets capable of chewing them up. I parked a bender up on the hill between the two middle nodes (7 & 9?) earlier today and was dropping em left and right.

Do you mean remmers as in redeemers? We already have a pair of arbalests and krakens. Thats more than enough nukes flying about for me . Though maybe an air strike...?
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:12 PM   #20
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Well, the Arblest and Kraken use rather watered-down remmers, if I remember. Target or Ion painters work too, though. Just throwing ideas out there... don't think it would make much difference in this map, to be honest.

Anyway, since I said it after quite a long edit... what's everyone's experiences with the Dragon? I think I might have been overly conservative with it... the low(er than a tank) health combined with the low acceleration and weakness to Avrils kind of makes it die rather easily. If that's the general consensus I think I'll remove the Avril weakness, up it's health to 600, and give it slightly more acceleration; still lower than the Raptor but more than it has now. I mean... it's ok for the Phoenix to die easily 'cause it respawns fast and is a one seater, but the Dragon could potentially hold three people, so it should take more than one guy to take it down when fully loaded.
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