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Old 09-01-2019, 11:18 PM   #1
galbro48026
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Default why haven't we seen in past seen a 64 man server in ut2004?
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I know we have 32 man servers but i guess computers cant handle a 64 man server or even higher or if even other games out there support that much people in one server? maybe world of war craft does? it would probably be expensive to host?
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Old 09-02-2019, 01:28 PM   #2
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I dunno, 32 is the maximum that you can select in the server settings for UT2004. I think a game and its maps would need to be incredibly optimized to handle more players well. Basically, the action needs to be spread well so that the server would not have to send all the information to all the players at the same time (a recipe for lag).


I know Star Wars: Battlefront II can have up to 40 players in one of their game modes.


As far as the server cost, it depends if you are renting a server with a certain number of slots, or if you are renting an empty machine where you need to do everything yourself (install and set up the game). If you are renting a machine with slots, then it will cost more the more slots you want to have.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:20 PM   #3
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Some of these maps would be great to try with 64 players, assuming "heyday" level of players and at least semi-seriousness taken. 64 players with four teams each with their own core could also be fun.

While other maps would be a total gong show...
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:12 AM   #4
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I believe it's actually a hard engine limit that is defined somewhere.

Also, the networking cost in UT2k4 can basically be broken down to [(num_players * num_players) + (num_players * num_spectators)], i.e. more than quadratic increase based on the number of players.

Adding just one more player not only means that the server has to send that player information about every other player, but it also has to send every other player information about that new player. It's a bit more forgiving for spectators because adding one more spectator means that the server has to send information about every player to that spectator, but it does not have to send other players any information about that spectator.

For every dynamic object in a map, the server needs to keep track of it and tell other players about its state. This includes stuff like pickups, projectiles, players, vehicles, nodes. The server not only needs to keep track of its own version of these things, but it also remembers the current state of every object for every player.
Assume you have a vehicle and it moves one unit forward on the server. The position on the server will now be different from its previous value, so the server checks if it's also different from the position value on the client (according to what the server believes is currently on the client - there is of course the possibility that the vehicle already moved somewhere else on the client, but the server does not know that). If it is, it will send the client an update about the position, and the client will use it. The server will now remember that as the new value for the client. It does this for every player in the game. If it's the same, the server does not need to send any updates.

That's a whole lot of stuff to keep track of, and it only gets worse with the number of players in the map. Also because more players mean more chances for dynamic stuff to be changing in a map. More shots being fired, more pickups being picked up, more things moving around. Around 350~400 dynamic objects in a map is usually the point where you notice things getting sluggish in maps with a lot of action and 32 players. ONS-Halo-Bloodgulch was a prime candidate for this back in the day. Not necessarily at first, but all the pending updates started to back up over the course of a match, as people were spamming flak and picking up 20 health vials at once, which would then later also respawn all at once. After 10-15 minutes in the map, the server just could not keep up any more and started to drop packages. Projectiles stopped appearing and you were getting killed out of nowhere.


And last but not least, a post on the CEONSS forum from 2017 said that on their state-of-the-art server CPU, a 32p ONS match with a tick rate of 30 would drive the CPU load to maximum on some more demanding maps. So I don't think 64p would be anywhere near achievable for the game.

Last edited by Crusha K. Rool; 09-06-2019 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:33 AM   #5
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The only time the CPU should be an issue is if there are lots of bots playing, or a bunch of vehicle collisions all at the same time, but the latter is more sporadic and not really an issue in my experience.

A fair amount of the data can be locally prioritized without much issue (until you get all 32 players in 1 area (really it is the vehicles not the players)). The main culprit is the cap on the data rate. Standard max is 80 kb/s or 0.08 Mb/s. So for a 32p server you need 2.56 Mb/s + spectators up. With 64p one would need 5.12 Mb/s up, but it is as you say, with more people you have more data to convey. Minimally, one would want to double the data cap, which has to be set by a script every map server-side to actually work, but that would bring you to 10 Mb/s up. And then there is already data culling currently. Optimistically, say double again to avoid invisible projectiles, and we are at 20Mb/s. Increase the tickrate for better hit detection, add another 50-100% and its at 30-40 Mb/s up.

I doubt there are any affordable game servers that offer than kind of bandwidth. The best bet at that point is someone with fiber hosting a private server.
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:48 PM   #6
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Increasing tick rate is a double-edged sword. To quote someone from CEONSS forums:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat1981England
Basically you have to divide the total amount of data sent to each client per second (netspeed) by the tick rate (number of times data is sent each second). So if your netspeed is 1 megabyte per second and you have a tick rate of 10, the server will send 100 kilobytes every tick (if needed). If you raise the tick rate to 20 then it will send 50 kilobytes. When the amount of data being sent to each client is too low, the server will start to prioritise what it thinks is the relevant data. This is why when some of us have a doggy connection the server will decide that the direction the turret of a tank is pointing is less important the other data and you will see the tank without a turret.
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Old 09-06-2019, 01:18 PM   #7
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Only when you are data capped. That's when the prioritization kicks in and you start to drop stuff. If you are not data capped though, higher tick is just better.

The problem (for ONS) is it is very easy to hit caps due to vehicles, spider mines, avrils, and scorpion bolas (especially spammed).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...cb4htm79mBa8U/


1 person, with 8 spiders right-clicked, can consume 1/3rd of the bandwidth for everyone in the area. 3 people doing it people can turn the game into a slide show for everyone in the area because spiders have high priority. It is dumb as hell but you still see maps with spider mines even though this has been known for 15 years....


I wonder if CEONSS uses a script to uncap their data rate? At a tick of 30 you can only really support 4 vehicles max in an area before prioritization, if they doubled it they could probably handle 9. With 10Mb/s up you could handle 18 vehicles in the same area... at 20 Mb/s up (80,000 B/s per client), one should be able to play 32p ONS at 30 tick practically flawlessly (sans spiders).

Last edited by -Goose-; 09-06-2019 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:05 PM   #8
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We don't have any scripts. We just have optimized our maps (like around 10 MB compressed, reduce collisions from SM and collision poligens, reduce Spider, granade, bio, normal scorp, try to make small action areas, split the action, usw) and have a dedicated server which is sitting right next to the big fibere hub from the Frankfurt stock exchange.
We also reduce the tick rate when the server is more active. We currently have 30. With your ping it's may a problem with hitscan, but normaly it's OK for players, which can compensate the ping with skill, as well.
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Old 09-06-2019, 04:11 PM   #9
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If you have the bandwidth available (seems like you do), should definitely look into a script for upping the limit server-side every map. That will improve the quality of play more than anything. Of course the each user has to also set it client-side to make use of it.

Commands to activate it are:

1) admin set ipdrv.tcpnetdriver maxinternetclientrate 20000

2) admin set ipdrv.tcpnetdriver maxclientrate 20000

3) netspeed 20000


For 32 players:
20k = 5 Mb/s
40k = 10Mb/s
80k = 20Mb/s

Last edited by -Goose-; 09-06-2019 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 09-08-2019, 06:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH View Post
Some of these maps would be great to try with 64 players, assuming "heyday" level of players and at least semi-seriousness taken. 64 players with four teams each with their own core could also be fun.

While other maps would be a total gong show...

Yes i remember that long ago its called i think CTF-4 where 4 different players so somewhat popular back in days.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:51 AM   #11
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But how would 4-way ONS even work? Would it be a last-team-standing mode? Then the first team(s) to have their core destroyed would be bored waiting for the rest to duel it out. Or would they get reassigned to the remaining teams?
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusha K. Rool View Post
But how would 4-way ONS even work? Would it be a last-team-standing mode? Then the first team(s) to have their core destroyed would be bored waiting for the rest to duel it out. Or would they get reassigned to the remaining teams?
Hmm... maybe they just respawn have free reign to kill whoever but no ability to build or destroy nodes. Then once they die they're out. Or have them respawn as monsters or something? Yeah that'd be a tough one to keep interest.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:09 PM   #13
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Default 64 man server
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All theory is grey and just second-best to practice. In fact, there IS a 64 man server, called PURE ONS, just look up the Onslaught server browser:

Edit: How to add a simple screenshot here ?!?
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File Type: jpg 64manServer.jpg (40.1 KB, 12 views)

Last edited by laboRHEinz; 09-11-2019 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laboRHEinz View Post
All theory is grey and just second-best to practice. In fact, there IS a 64 man server, called PURE ONS, just look up the Onslaught server browser:

Edit: How to add a simple screenshot here ?!?
I wouldn't believe this unless I seen it full. Altering a number on the server browser list is much easier than expanding the capability of an engine.
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